A New Dawn for Hate?

Faget

By Heather L. Weaver

This morning, in Ogden, Utah, Aaron Feller McFarland and his husband, Nik McFarland, woke up to find the slurs “FAGET” and “HOMO DIE” emblazoned across their car in blood-red spray paint.

Yesterday, Nancy Leong experienced a more casual form of harassment. On her morning run in Denver, as a car whooshed by, a man screamed at her, “Build that wall!” Never mind that Nancy, an associate professor at the University of Denver Sturm College of Law, is an Asian American, born and raised in this country. Her brown skin and dark brown hair were all that were required to raise the ire of her harasser.

Aaron, Nik, and Nancy are not alone. A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in. Shaun King, the senior justice writer for the New York Daily News, has received dozens and dozens of reports of abuse and is chronicling them on Twitter. The Southern Poverty Law Center is also collecting reports of racist harassment, as are various news outlets.

The harassment and discrimination has been widespread, targeting people based on race, ethnicity, and national origin, as well as religion and sexual orientation. Not surprisingly, in light of promises to ban Muslims from our country and to single out American Muslims for surveillance, many of the victims have been Muslim. A San Diego State University Muslim student was robbed, for example, by two men who made comments about Donald Trump and Muslims. The student was wearing a hijab at the time.

Homo-dieThe reaction among affected communities runs the gamut. Some victims of these attacks are speaking out and inspiring others. At the same time, many people are fearful and unsure what to do.

Although there are no easy answers, one thing is clear: We can’t sit back and watch this become the new normal.

When the government violates constitutional and statutory rights, the path forward is much clearer: We take legal action to stop the violations and restore equal protection for all. Indeed, the ACLU has already made clear to President-elect Trump that we’ll see him in court if he tries to implement any of the unconstitutional policies he proposed during the campaign, many of which would harm the very people already suffering harassment days after the election. And, in that vein, we urge everyone to review our Know Your Rights resources, which cover a wide range of civil liberties, such as your rights when questioned by police or when protesting.

But what can we do when private citizens — emboldened by political leaders — travel down the reprehensible path of hurling bigotry at their neighbors?  When the harassment takes place in public schools and the work context, school officials and employers have an obligation to stop it because it is their responsibility to ensure that our schools and workplaces are safe for all. And when the harassment involves violence or threats of violence, law enforcement has a duty to intervene, no matter the race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or other identity of the perpetrator or victim. We are all entitled to bias-free, equitable police protection — a right that is more important now than ever.

Yet, even when such harassment does not take place in school or the workplace or does not involve physical violence, it can still exact an extraordinary human cost. Victims often experience the harassment as an attempt to intimidate them and to force them out of public spaces and social and political communities. This we cannot allow.

In some situations, when any of us are witnessing harassment as it is happening, we can stand up and help.  Earlier this year, French illustrator Marie-Shirine Yener sketched out a four-step plan to help bystanders of anti-Muslim harassment defuse the situation by engaging the victim in conversation and building a safe space for him or her. But, as some have pointed out, the intervention Yener proposes might not always work and could end up escalating some situations, so it has to be employed cautiously.

If this is indeed a new dawn for hate, then we must use the sunshine to our advantage. We must embrace the victims of harassment with warmth and love, and we must shine the brightest light possible on these acts of bigotry. We must encourage those targeted to keep documenting the harassment for the public record in any way they can — through Twitter, Facebook, or any other medium — and we must amplify their voices. When they don’t have the strength to document the harassment, we must (with their permission) do it for them. And we must find ways to speak out against and condemn such harassment: Every. Single. Time.

Will you join us in pledging to speak out against bigotry and harassment until the sun finally sets on a renewed wave of hate?  Make your commitment known in the comments!

Heather L. Weaver is the Senior Staff Attorney, ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief

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169 comments

  1. But what can we do when private citizens — emboldened by political leaders — travel down the reprehensible path of hurling bigotry at their neighbors? “

    Before those who routinely dismiss anything written by a member of the ACLU, I would like to point out that this exact process has already started. We had a blatant example of the kind of denial that this is occurring here on the Vanguard yesterday.

    I related an event that my daughter who teaches middle school science in Stockton had relayed to me. It involved one student asking her about our president elects new policies fearful that she or members of her family might be deported. Another student near at the timed chipped in with ” Don’t worry, you will be on the Trump train back to where you came from”.  I related the story as told to me. I was told by Jerry that I had made it up. BP agreed in effect asserting that we would see many more fabricated stories. Now I have my strengths and weakness and frequently fall short of my personal best, but the one thing that I do not do is lie. I can be wrong. I frequently make mistakes. But I do not lie. Lying destroys lives. It destroyed mine and those of my children and caused us a long, slow, but ultimately effective re build. I simply do not lie.  Even if you think that I might have a motive for fabrication since I post frequently here, ask yourself “what motivation would my own daughter have had to fabricate a story like this to tell me ?” We are already both as disappointed and sad as we are likely to be in our public lives. So what would she possibly have to gain ?

    I completely admit that bullying  targeting  those who are perceived as weak including minorities is not new. It was in full swing when I was in elementary school. But what we are seeing now is a difference in order of magnitude. Our president elect has elevated the lie to the point where he completely ignores having been captured on tape saying a definitive statement, and claims, despite the obvious evidence that, he never said that. Over and over he has been documented threatening various detrimental actions including physical violence and legal action against those who oppose him and who have less power. And this quintessential bully is who the electoral college will select to be our next leader.

    Again, I ask all of you to consider. If this is the kind of behavior that we have not only accepted as our norm, but now are seeing elevated to our highest position of role model and leader, do we really expect that we will not see an increased in these kinds of actions to promote fear and hatred ? After all, if it works for our president, maybe it will work for us too.

      1. Interesting, on many levels… the one I choose to address occurred in 1942, not 1932, but those are not mutually exclusive… Governor Earl Warren was considered a flaming liberal by some [as a  chief Supreme Court Justice], yet instrumental in making sure those of Japanese descent were sent to ‘internment’, or ‘relocation’ facilities… a number of kids I grew up with were the offspring of folk that met in those camps…

        Many Davis folk supported the ‘relocations’ at the time… “paranoia runs deep… into your hearts it will creep…”

        1. ask Mariko about what happened to her family….ask my friends who live in Woodland and in Davis…what happened to their families…

          ask and find out what happened to MY family in Manchuria…

          google manchuria and JAPANESE crimes…

          The hysteria is funded by those who will profit from the hysteria.

          The military, halliburton, and the prison guards..and especially their unions…..the dems who were upset and those who are on drugs anyway…

          Follow the money and learn the truth…it ain’t the Donald…but it could also be some in the ACLU…right?

          The Japanese would abduct white men off the streets never to be seen again…some relatives and many friends of my parents/grandparents disappeared in that manner…and it wasn’t the soviets either.

           

  2. From article:  “A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in.”

    It’s unfortunate, to say the least.

    But, one thing that is often overlooked is that such harassment and violence is also directed at people of “no color”, as demonstrated by BP’s recent video links.  (Hatred and extreme violence based on nothing but “lack of color”.)  Trump is not “causing” people to do this.

    I have been personally subject to this type of hatred/violence in my younger years (based on “lack of color”), more than once.  I bear physical and emotional damage to this day, as a result. (And, experienced the constant threat and fear of it, going to public schools.)  It was not unusual, and predated Trump. I suspect that it changed my life in ways that can’t be fully measured.

    It always angered me whenever anyone said this was due to “prior racism”, which I was not responsible for (and did not even fully understand, at the time).  Such attitudes are harmful, and perhaps even fostered such hatred and violence.

      1. Davis Progressive:  That’s probably true, at least to some degree.  I was shocked to see some of the behavior at Trump’s rallies.  (Including statements from the then-candidate, himself.)

        1. Ron, much if not most of that bad behavior at Trump rallies was precipitated by the left.  Check out the O’Keefe videos of Democrat operatives admitting that they paid militants to disrupt Trump rallies.

    1. Don’t think the president-elect “caused” anything… few sentient beings would blame him personally, nor would they ignore the fact that the rhetoric he used, did indeed help inflame latent emotions.  

      The president-elect is essentially powerless, unless he can persuade others… I don’t think anyone was persuaded by his words, unless by picking at scabs you believe he ‘persuaded’ the wound to bleed or ooze again.  

      His words of “healing” fall flat, indeed… he did his best to pick at scabs… a common trait among immature boys… did that in my youth, sometimes still do…

      Time will tell…

      BTW, if you keep picking at a scab, you might end up with a scar… I’ll leave to those with medical training to explain the implication of scars, depending where they are on the ‘body’.

      1. Ron, DP and hpierce

        I agree with all three of you that our president elect is not the cause of these actions. However, in making them a part of his political strategy, employing them himself openly, and at large rallies encouraging this kind of behavior he is modeling it for others. A president has many roles, commander in chief, maker of key appointments, our representative to other nations…..and a a role model for our citizens. It is his choice to model this particular brand of behavior for which I find him culpable. He now has an opportunity to disavow his previous positions and actions and explicitly call on our citizens to stop these activities immediately.

        Like hpierce, I will wait and see…… perhaps with less hope than many.

        1. Tia:

          I am not disagreeing with you, regarding Trump.

          However, the reason that I posted is because it seems that some “overlook” the fact that hatred and violence based on skin color (or other similar criteria) is not “owned” by one particular group.

          Look at the wording of the article (and perhaps your own comments?) if you doubt that some (purposefully?) overlook this.  (And, it’s quite harmful.) It is not the first time I’ve observed these types of thoughts (not just on the Vanguard).

        2. tia – agreed on that.  not exonerating trump, only pointing out that he didn’t create the problem, he exploited it.

          ron – what’s missing from your comment is an understanding of power dynamics.

        3. Tia, the only reason I am hopeful is that he will have to deal with a split Republican majority in both houses… many of whom either opposed or refused to endorse him… unless he can convince folk of integrity, he will be “impotent”… he won’t get the majorities he needs with ‘campaign rhetoric’.

          Just like most bullies actually suffer from low-self-esteem, or other fears, needing to make themselves ‘appear big’, or instill fear in others, most those who indulge in sexual abuse/impropriety question their own sexuality, and feel (pun intended) a need to prove their “sexual”-hood to ‘prove themselves’…

        4. Davis Progressive:

          “ron – what’s missing from your comment is an understanding of power dynamics.”

          Perhaps you could explain that, in regard to the physical and psychological injuries that I endured.  (I certainly experienced the “power” of the majority, in those situations.)  At the time, I was already aware of (and angered by) the attitude which excused such actions.

          But, what I’ve come to realize (at a later point in my life) is that I was born into a system in which my parents (and those before them) had opportunities which allowed me to be “born into” a better life than some others.  Perhaps that’s what you mean?

          The reason that I haven’t previously made many comments regarding this subject is because I don’t think it’s helpful to cite violence by one particular group, or another.  I’d rather focus on efforts to solve the problem. But, that won’t be accomplished by “downplaying” or disregarding reality, or blaming one particular group as the sole source of racial hatred. 

        5. DP wrote:

          > ron – what’s missing from

          > your comment is an

          > understanding of power dynamics.

          I’m wondering if DP feels that an out of work white construction worker living in his parents double wide has more “power” than an Asian law professor (who happens to look Hispanic).

  3. Here they go again doing the same things that got them into this mess while ignoring the real mess.

    We are supposed to believe that the election of Trump is going to turn back the clock on civil rights… the same civil rights brought to us primarily from Republicans.

    All of this would be laughable if we didn’t see the destructive result of this long-standing tired old leftist hogwash.

    The REAL fear that drove many people to the polls to vote for Trump has been manifest in the rioting in the liberal urban domain.  The lawlessness.  The disregard for others property, safety and life.  The political correctness demands run amuck.  The intolerance for any words and ideas not approved by those shrinking wallflower passive aggressive cry-bullies demanding “safe places” to plot their next tantrum of destruction.

    The DNC and their now legendarily-proven corrupt media pals came unglued with Trump said he wouldn’t immediately accept the results if Hillary won… yet there are thousands of crying liberals destroying cities around the country refusing to accept the election results… and not a peep of criticism.

    What we have seen is 20+ years of the political left Baby Boomers doubling down on their strategy to foment hatred of any and all that don’t frog-march within their ideological collective.  They have created millions of little anarchist monsters that are the true threat to this country, not the few idiot racists that flap their gums.

    1. Frankly:  “The DNC and their now legendarily-proven corrupt media pals came unglued with Trump said he wouldn’t immediately accept the results if Hillary won… yet there are thousands of crying liberals destroying cities around the country refusing to accept the election results… and not a peep of criticism.”

      There is (some) truth in what you’re stating.  (And, I’d suggest that it’s the same attitude that only focuses on hatred and violence when it’s perpetrated by a particular group.)

  4. By the way, this is all happening under Barack Obama’s watch.  Donald Trump is not the President.  Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are directly responsible for this as is the mainstream liberal media for their unbridled hatred leveled at the candidate and his followers.  What has the President done to calm this nation?  Not a thing.  I think he likes what he is seeing.  He likes it when Portland burns.

    The legacy of Barack Obama was already poor, but now it is trash.  He will be seen as the worst thing that happened to this country… the most divisive and damaging President ever.  He fomented and widened the divisions because that was his and the DNC’s political strategy.  Divide and conquer.  Right out the Rules for Radicals bible.  He fomented the hate that we see, not Donald Trump.  I expect Donald Trump to start healing this nation once in office.

    1. Frankly:  “I think he likes what he is seeing.  He likes it when Portland burns.”

      I doubt that.  But, I think that he, and perhaps Clinton and others, could probably do more to help focus energy in a more constructive manner (for next time).

    2. my problem with your comment is that you are putting partisan blame on this.  a more objective understanding is that this was a process.  southern elites maintained control by pitting poor whites against blacks. the loss of the manufacturing sector was a long process overseen by both parties.  the displacement of working class whites by people of color has occurred over decades.  the parties have shifted in their own battles.  what has happened is not the result of one person, but rather the colliding of electoral interests over time.

      1. I agree that the economic destruction of the working class was a joint effort by elites in both Parties, but then the Great Recession and a President that did about everything he could to stunt the recovery that would have helped the working class… at a time when he should have been doing the opposite.  And then he says things like “they sure love their guns and religion” as one of many subtle and not so subtle pokes.

        If Obama was the great uniter claimed by his followers then we would not be seeing this social meltdown.

    3. I think he likes what he is seeing. He likes it when Portland burns.

      This is trolling. It is intentionally provocative, outlandish rhetoric intended to foment hostile replies.

      President Obama:

      “That’s what the country needs – a sense of unity; a sense of inclusion; a respect for our institutions, our way of life, rule of law; and a respect for each other,” said Obama. “I hope that he maintains that spirit throughout this transition, and I certainly hope that’s how his presidency has a chance to begin.”

      Clinton also called for a “peaceful transition of power”, urging: “We don’t just respect that. We cherish it. It also enshrines the rule of law; the principle we are all equal in rights and dignity; freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these values, too, and we must defend them.

      “We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought but I sill believe in America and if you do then we must accept this result,” she added in an emotional concession speech. “We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.”

  5. Ron

    Look at the wording of the article (and perhaps your own comments?) if you doubt that some (purposefully?) overlook this.  (And, it’s quite harmful.) It is not the first time I’ve observed these types of thoughts (not just on the Vanguard).”

    I realize that you are relatively new to our community and perhaps to our Vanguard community as well. During multiple instances of civil disobedience whether they have been inner city disruptions or armed take overs of public lands, I have been consistent in my denunciation of the use of force or threat thereof to obtain political goals. I have tried to be clear that I do not condone these kinds of behaviors or the deliberate denial that our “own side” also engages in them regardless of the political persuasion of the perpetrator. I hope this clarifies my position so that you will be assured that I do not see this as a problem coming from just one side of the spectrum as some posters clearly do in their own words.

    1. Tia:

      I realize that you don’t condone such behavior, and I don’t have a quote from you which states otherwise.  However, there is a general focus (by liberals?  those on the left?) to exclusively focus on racial hatred and violence perpetrated against “those of color” (presumably, by “those of no color”).  Not much focus on the news report (and video) showing a white man getting the sh*t beat out of him (and nearly killed?), solely for having “no color”.  (Just one example of selective focus.)

      I avoided watching that video for awhile, and then could only watch part of it. It is too painful to watch.

      From article:  “A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in.”

      (Not crazy about the “color” descriptions that have recently arisen.)

       

      1. Ron

        I realize that you may not have seen my posts on other types of discrimination. Specifically I have previously pointed out and fought very hard against discrimination against males in my profession. The most straightforward example of this was when, while on the administrative hiring team we had a group of applicants only one of which was male. Objectively by his qualifications he was agreed to be clearly the best candidate. However, it was openly expressed by some on our team that the next best qualified candidate should be chosen because she was a woman and “that it what our patients prefer”. First, it is not what the majority of our patients prefer. This is demonstrable since as many women are deeply attached to their male gynecologist as to their female doctors. What was really at play here is the belief  amongst some female doctors that female doctors as a group have to work harder. I stood my ground about hiring the best qualified individual and he was hired and is clearly a valuable asset to our group.

        I do not condone discrimination on the basis of any type of biologic grouping. Individual behavior, accomplishment and character are the only legitimate criteria for judgement in my opinion.

        1. Tia – thanks for clarifying, and for providing that example.

          In general, I stand by my comment regarding “those of the left, liberals” focusing solely on violence committed by whites against non-whites.  (For example, refer to the quote from the article, above.)

          And again, I don’t think it’s particularly useful to single out a particular group (in this case, “those without color”) as being the sole perpetrators of hatred and violence based on skin color (or similar criteria).

          Regarding your particular example, I’m not seeing the connection between your peers’ statements that “this is what our patients prefer”, vs. a “belief amongst some female doctors that female doctors as a group have to work harder”.  Perhaps what you actually witnessed is a form of discrimination, by those “in power”.  But, whatever the reason, it’s admirable that you stood up for a decision based on qualifications.

          (As a side note, I have to admit that I’d probably prefer a female gynecologist, if I were female. At least, until I became familiar with the individual. But, I’m not sure how I’d react.)

    2. Actually, Dr. Will, Ron has much more sense on many things than you do….and frankly, not the sockpuppet, he learns much faster also..

      When I post something he is able to follow the string…while I have had to beat you with evidence for days on end, and you cannot see past your rose colored glasses….right?

      That may be because, I would expect that he did his elementary education long before you did….

      I would expect that he is more my age….right?  who knows

       

       

      1. Marina

        Actually, Dr. Will, Ron has much more sense on many things than you do….and frankly, not the sockpuppet, he learns much faster also..

        Actually Marina, I believe that you confuse the word “learns” with agrees with my point of view.

  6. What can one expect, when many in this country are poisoned from birth or in the womb?

    The mothers who are drug addicts and the fathers who are addicts and the babies get few options.

    One of the reasons that the children of Davis do better than in West Sac, is because they are not fluoridated 24/7.   Many of the parents in those areas are not aware of the harms of the toxic hazardous waste chemical byproducts from aluminum processing.

    In poor areas, children are sick from very early on… then they have ADHD and other issues due to the poor food provided to them by the USDA>…and so it goes.

    The environment is toxic….microban and other antimicrobials which result in MRSA and other super bugs in their environment…..

    Their parents may unemployed on the dole or not or underemployed…they have to go to doctors which take Medi-Cal….and those doctors make sure the children get their toxic vaccines or else they will not be getting their free milk and such.   Those doctors are now getting $40K bonuses if ALL their clients are fully vaccinated…that includes flu shot (which includes Thimerasol) at age 6 months and annually thereafter.

    When I have shared this on other threads, some thought it was lies and off topic..

    Frankly, and not the sockuppet who posts here, that is the truth.

    And, the basis of hate is actually rooted in the decisions made by BO and the dems….self absorbed folks who promised to make a difference and didn’t….

    Look around you…the gaps are getting wider…in income…in achievements….and so on.

    Look at the DETROIT water issues…

    Follow the money and learn the truth.

    Donald will stomp out hate, by ensuring ALL have clean water, decent nontoxic food and real jobs…

    Wait and watch and participate in calming down the masses….

    LOOK at what happened in Germany and look at what happened in Russia.

    And, you may be all wrong on why the Hitler in Germany and the Jews of Russia were unhappy and what occurred as a result..

    When one cannot even provide clean water, clean food and nutrition for their families crimes skyrocket…when one has no work, and a family to feed, they may steal….and when one gets stopped for DWB, then one can run…and be killed right?   even if they did not a thing wrong.

    Hate is because those with means like Bill Gates and others have it all and do not do enough….or not enough of the correct things….

    Folks like the Obamas got their hands up…and didn’t reciprocate….

    That is why the BO and wifey who was mostly a stay at home mom, and they took vacations year round, did NOTHING for the generations of black men living in poor areas who have not worked in decades perhaps and in generations for sure….
    have many more millions than before they started working as the Pres and Fist lady.

    while their children got private schools, Enagic Kangen Water, all organics etc….while the children in DC get common core, toxic water and food, and so on…..

    have a good day everyone…enjoy the Saturday or do something useful…you may get a clue as time goes by….

     

     

     

    1. One of the reasons that the children of Davis do better than in West Sac, is because they are not fluoridated 24/7.   Many of the parents in those areas are not aware of the harms of the toxic hazardous waste chemical byproducts from aluminum processing.”

      Oh, for heaven’s sake. There is not one shred of evidence to support this with these demographic groups. If this is the kind of “evidence” to which you are referring, it is no wonder that I do not “learn” quickly. I am not in the habit of adjusting my beliefs based on wild claims with no substantiation.

       

  7. I marched with MLK and I marched at People’s Park in Berkeley…and I marched with my black friends in Oak Park also…

    I marched at Lincoln HS in the 60s with my black friends from the YMCA>..

    I cut school and hitchhiked there from JHS>>>

    also later when there were hardly any blacks at Lowell HS>>.and the few were too busy getting into Harvard or Yale…

    I am beyond marching, except against Monsanto on fifth in Davis and in Sac……so far that has never  been violent.

    Start following the money and learn the truth,…it ain’t what you think   🙂

  8. Davis is unique…it has been a safe haven for weird people like me…and so many others…it was the first UC to make a safe place for the LGBT crowd…and for Jews…and in the 70s for Christian Persians from what is now known as Iran.

    And, even then, there have been some issues.

    Do not blame the donald for any of this either…

    Dr. Linda Katehi made huge strides with her Latina/o Chicana/o and native peoples center.

    For women for STEM and for all children of every race and color..and creed….right?

    She was the best chancellor since the 70s…since 1970 that is…

    And, look what was done to her….she is happier now…and we are only going to get mealy mouthed yes people now who may even apply…the politically correct and perhaps savvy ostrich people…right?

     

     

    1. Davis is unique…it has been a safe haven for weird people like me…

      Thankfully, Davis has also been a haven for many more weird people who are nothing like you.

  9. It doesn’t matter who is responsible for inciting this violence but it matters whether or not our leaders condemn it and use the weight of the law and moral authority to insist it stop. That is the what didn’t happen in 1932. In fact the violence was continuously encourage and exploited, ultimately leading to the holocaust. My fear is that Trump won’t tell people to stop it and it will continue to get worse.

  10. Marina

    I marched with MLK”

    And do you suppose that MLK would be proud of the election of a man who publicly states that he does not believe that an American judge can be objective and/or fair specifically because of his Hispanic heritage ?

  11. hpierce

    Tia, the only reason I am hopeful is that he will have to deal with a split Republican majority in both houses… many of whom either opposed or refused to endorse him… unless he can convince folk of integrity, he will be “impotent”… he won’t get the majorities he needs with ‘campaign rhetoric’.

    Just like most bullies actually suffer from low-self-esteem, or other fears, needing to make themselves ‘appear big’, or instill fear in others, most those who indulge in sexual abuse/impropriety question their own sexuality, and feel (pun intended) a need to prove their “sexual”-hood to ‘prove themselves’… “

    I agree with most of your post and want to thank you for this little ray of light. I am starting to come out of a very dark place, which is foreign to me as I am almost always optimistic. So I want to thank you personally for helping me even in very small ways, to work my way through this to a place where I can walk in hope.

    1. Tia:

      I’m actually less worried about Trump (whom I liken to “Fred Flintstone”), than I am about Pence (who has a much more reasonable personality).  This could happen, if Trump is impeached at some point by his own party (as some seem to be predicting). (By the way, Pence did much better in the VP debate than Kaine.)

        1. hpierce:  Because Pence seems more conservative than Trump (and has more support among the party that both belong to).  And, anything that Pence might do will not be scrutinized as much by the media (and those upset with Trump, in general).

          Trump has staked out some conservative positions. But, in the end, I suspect that he’s more of a “deal-maker”, and less driven by ideology. Some of what he says goes against BOTH parties and sounds appealing, at least on a superficial level. He is speaking to a group of people who have been largely ignored by both parties.

    1. BP

      Here’s a link to one false accusations”

      I do not deny that there may be some false accusations. I do not see why you cannot admit that there may also be some true ones, as in the incident about which I posted.