Yesterday one of our posters posted a poll from Rasmussen Reports from last September that found that “Only 20% of Likely U.S. Voters believe President Obama has brought Americans of different races closer together.” A Google search reveals that, while the numbers and the polling question vary, the numbers have been relatively stable over the course of the last four years.
A New York Times article from last July found that 60 percent of the voters “think race relations are generally bad, and that nearly four in 10 think the situation is getting worse.” Only 15 percent said race relations had improved.
There are those who want to push this problem onto President Obama himself – and, while I get that, I think they are wrong. Up until the last few years, I have not been much of a fan of the President, but in the last few years, overall my impression has improved, particularly on race issues.
For me a key moment came in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin killing, when President Obama was able to articulate to the entire country what it was like to be a black man in America. He pointed out, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” He was also able to articulate what it was like to be racially profiled, to be treated with suspicion due to the color of his skin.
My view is that President Obama isn’t causing the divide, but, rather, he’s reflecting the divide. For most black people, the string of highly publicized incidents of police officers killing unarmed black men is not a novel revelation, but rather a “welcome to my world” moment, where white America is being consistently invited into a world that they do not experience, absent these news reports.
On July 1, ironically before the recent incidents, CNN had a story “What black America won’t miss about Obama.” The take away message was, “I didn’t know how racist America was until it elected its first black president.”
Writes CNN, Linnyette Richardson-Hall, an African-American event planner, “has restrained herself more than she ever expected in the past eight years. She fumed when she saw a poster of Obama dressed as an African witch doctor, online images of First Lady Michelle Obama depicted as a monkey, and racist Facebook comments by white people she thought she knew.”
Bottom line: “Some say they’ve never felt so much pessimism about white America, such hopelessness.” CNN adds, “It’s not that black people aren’t proud of Obama or his family. His approval rating among blacks has been astronomically high throughout his presidency. But that pride has been accompanied by pain.”
The take away for me here is that, for white America, they are being forced to confront the notion that maybe all wasn’t as well with black America as they thought in 2007, and black America is being forced to confront the fact that there is a lot more racism in this country than they wanted to believe in 2007.
Part of what is missing here is an appreciation from history that this really isn’t new. This takes me back to the presentation by Melissa Harris-Perry in San Francisco back in May. There was, of course, the haunting image of people casually gathered around the tree with two dead black men hanging from it, but there was also her modern narrative.
There was the treatment of New Orleans post-Katrina, and the horrific treatment of the displaced, and also the total breakdown of the justice system there. There was the 2006 Jena Six incident.
Some of the biggest challenges to racial profiling – both the New Jersey and California cases – occurred before Barack Obama became President.
The bottom line, I think, is that racial incidents did not begin when Obama became President, they continued. What changed is that people pushed back.
For Melissa Harris-Perry, the incident where Henry “Skip” Gates was arrested in front of his own home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, after he couldn’t find his keys was a message to black America that things hadn’t changed.
“He thinks the world has changed,” she explained. “(But) nothing had changed. This ends up being the whole thing and we sort of miss it because – oh, the President waded in on race and so should he.” She said, “The whole rest of it is whether or not these black men and these black women who just elected this black man president, changed a damn thing in this country. Whether or not they are actually citizens. Whether or not they can actually stand there to the police, ‘oh no you didn’t.’ Or whether or not they are going to have to continue to stand on their knees and crawl and defer.”
Ms. Harris-Perry’s narrative was that black people, in essence, had thought that Barack Obama being elected as President meant that things had changed and that Skip Gates’ treatment in 2009 was a reminder that it hadn’t.
However, the reaction was to push for more change. This is similar to what happened after World War II – black Americans had fought the Nazis and Japanese and came home as heroes to find that they were second class citizens upon their return and they weren’t willing to take that.
The situation at home hadn’t gotten worse, but the expectations had increased. Many scholars believe that revolutions and social movements happen not when things are at their lowest level, but rather when reality fails to meet expectations. This is known as the rising expectations thesis for revolution, and some of what is happening is the result of that.
Where I give Barack Obama a lot of credit here is that he is not being silent on this issue. The speech he gave on Thursday may be long-overshadowed by the tragedy that night in Dallas, but it continued to articulate the frustration of the black community over their treatment by police.
The report out of Chicago was quite damning, because it rang true – a common thread in all of these shootings – whether justified, legal, or illegal – is the lack of apparent sanctity for black human lives. Different approaches by the police could have preserved their safety while handling the situation in a way that preserved life, or at least gave the individual a better chance to survive the encounter.
To their credit, most police departments understand changes are needed and have been implementing them – whether it be simple use of body-worn cameras or PERF (Police Executive Research Forum)-recommended changes to use of force.
I see no way to confront these problems without cracking a few eggs, and therefore I am less troubled that people see a decline in race relations. I believe that race relations were never really as good as we wanted to believe they were, and this is a better reflection of the true reality we face.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
David wrote:
> There are those who want to push this problem onto President Obama himself –
> and while I get that, I think they are wrong.
Do you think Obama was wrong to say the white cop that “acted stupidly” when he did not have the details of a situation (taking the side of a black guy who it turns out was the one that “acted stupidly”)?
I don’t know if David is getting any of the checks from George Soros and others but I predict that the mainstream media is going to double down on the race, gun and gay divide this year. After the working class revolt of “Brexit” the rich powerful Republicans and the rich powerful Democrats are extra worried that the bulk of Americans of all races are going to realize that they are getting screwed and that for close to 40 years the middle class has been shrinking and the rich of both parties get more money and power.
It is sad that poor black guys will vote for the guy that is moving their jobs out of the US year after year just because he says he cares about affirmative action and gives them a free Obamaphone and poor white guys will vote for the guy that is moving their jobs out of the US year after year because he says he wants to protect marriage and and lets them keep their 30 round magazines.
P.S. Interesting chart on the link below:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/breakdown-us-citizens-killed-cops-2016
“I don’t know if David is getting any of the checks from George Soros”
Maybe you can help the Vanguard get some…
“Do you think Obama was wrong to say the white cop that “acted stupidly” when he did not have the details of a situation (taking the side of a black guy who it turns out was the one that “acted stupidly”)?”
Which case?
Beergate, the Harvard professor and the Cambridge cop for one.
David wrote:
> Which case?
Has Obama made race relations worse by taking the side of the black guy without knowing what really happened more than once?
Poor whites and poor blacks have a lot in common and as long as the rich and powerful (of all races and political parties) can pander to them and keep them on different “teams” it will be easier to stay in control (as they crush small business and move jobs overseas with the help of NAFTA and TPP)…
But which case were you referring to? You avoided the question even though you highlight
SOD–very good points in your posts above–you beat me to posting them.
Obama wastes no time jumping in with his opinions before he knows all the facts when it involves racial incidents but when we have obvious Islamic terrorist killings he likes to step back and refuse to call it what it is until he says all the facts are in.
Race relations is the topic.
Yes it’s on topic, it shows how Obama is too quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to racial incidents.
I’m not sure why Rasmussen chose to interview likely voters on this, instead of the general population. Here’s Pew:
Pew Research on race
Skews it right
David – you never seem to for a second open up your mind to the impact of economic factors. For you it is all about the racist police and only the racist police. I think you are stuck.
If things are so good for blacks under Obama, then explain this:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx
Blacks were feeling much better about race relations in 2001. 70% said that they were very good or somewhat good. By 2015 it had crashed to a new low of 51%. And ironically for the first time in this period of time whites developed a stronger opinion that race relations had crashed than for blacks.
Here is this again.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/social-mobility-memos/posts/2015/01/15-mlk-black-opportunity-reeves
I think there is growing agreement that law enforcement needs reforms.
But it irritates and angers many people to keep reading this myopic social poisoning of the well of potential cooperation with a constant “cops are racist” narrative. It will take us nowhere but to a growing social war. And I think people with your views, along with the BLM fools and militants, are going to be the ones to blame.
Here is what I think.
In the 1990s and up to the early 2000’s more blacks were integrating into mainstream American life through education and career. Think about it. Where does your pride as a man come from? It comes from your family life, but for most men that is secondary to your identity as being accomplished in education attainment and work/profession/career. Men also tend to develop self-worth being a consistent provider for their families. And just skip the criticism of sexism here… I don’t have the time nor the care to go down that path. Because the primary problem with the black community is the high percentage of disenfranchised and disaffected black males.
So education gets crappier and/or too expensive and the job/profession/career opportunities disappear. Now we have a larger percentage of black men lacking the American standard path to grow their identity and pride. So now they make their own path. And because it is not the standard path it is rejected by mainstream Americans (rightfully so in my opinion). And the black men grow angrier that their choice of path to feeling manly are rejected by mainstream America and they start to decry it as racism.
And what does Obama do? He basically joins them and supports them in this criticism.
But how the ef do you adopt and accept this foreign and destructive manhood path chosen without utterly destroying the black community?
I do agree that there are more unfortunate incidents that impact law-abiding black men that are on the American-standard path to manhood. The fact is that bad behavior in the black community has significantly increased and race relations have melted and the social justice left has taken up extreme white-shaming and all of it is causing a big mess of anger, mistrust and fear.
The root cause of all of this mess is the crash in economic opportunity in the black community.
And Obama sits as our supreme leader that should have put all his efforts in reversing the crash. Instead he has made it worse.
What I would do is to create new programs of enterprise zones in the black community. I would scrap some trade policy with Asia and allow the repatriation of overseas money from American corporations if they would set up manufacturing in these enterprise zones. This would also require relaxing recently exploded EPA regulations. I would include a private-public partnership with these companies to form boot-camp work training campuses. I would completely reform the education systems. I would fund more moral and social assistance institutions to locate there. I would double the number of police in these communities but only after cleaning the departments of all the bad cops and implementing a rigorous style of community policing.
We need a new Marshall Plan for our poor urban communities. This and only this is going to improve the outcomes for blacks. Blaming the cops is like blaming the EPA for Global Warming… except the former is guaranteed to cause more destruction.
I’m not opposed to major investment in our communities, but I see a cycle of poverty, lack of employment and educational opportunities and mass incarceration. The nexus you keep missing is that once you’re in the system with a felony record, your chances for getting out go way down.
I agree that a felony record ruins economic opportunity.
So, I agree that we should change our criminal laws for drug possession. However, I think you know that this will be a de minimis help. Few people have felony records for drug possession.
Then there is gun procession, drug dealing, theft and violent crime. Are you advocating for the cops to stand down or turn away in these neighborhoods so that fewer young black men are caught and end up with a felony record?
I really am having a problem with this line of thinking. Is it that you think there are a lot of felony convictions of blacks that are innocent, or just that more are caught breaking the law because the cops are profiling? If the latter, then it would appear that you are advocating for having the cops stand down and turn a blind eye so that more lawlessness can happen. How is that really going to help these communities? Don’t you consider the long view here?
When you say you are not opposed to major investment in these communities, do you also support exceptions to environmental regulations to help manufacturing and industry locate there and making the territories right-to-work and giving tax breaks to the corporations that would locate there? And lastly, some more reductions in welfare and social services to encourage people to work?
Frankly
“Men also tend to develop self-worth being a consistent provider for their families. And just skip the criticism of sexism here… I don’t have the time nor the care to go down that path”
Of course your don’t. While you are willing to accuse Don of being closed minded, you freely admit to not being willing to consider that which does not fit your preconceived narrative.
“Now we have a larger percentage of black men lacking the American standard path to grow their identity and pride”
And you appear are unwilling to look at alternatives to the “American standard path to grow their identity and pride”. Could you not consider for a moment that the “standard path” might be “rigged” to use a favored phrase of a national political contender to favor those who held power at the time that this “standard path” was being established, tracing back to when the country was established and women and blacks were not considered to be equal people. Your narrative seems to arise spontaneously at some arbitrary point in time when full equality has been established, at least in your mind although the numbers would suggest that it has not yet been achieved, especially financially speaking.
“ I would scrap some trade policy with Asia and allow the repatriation of overseas money from American corporations if they would set up manufacturing in these enterprise zones. “
And would you also support a minimum wage here so that your importation of production of goods does not simply create an underclass of workers here as it has done abroad ?
“boot-camp work training campuses.”
Hmmm…..sounds a lot like sweat shops by a different name to me….but perhaps you could elaborate ?
While I agree with you that a major revamping of the economic opportunities for those in economically deprived areas would be advantageous, I would urge a different route. I would suggest two options as being superior to your “boot camps”.
My first choice would be a UBI with payments for positive contribution to the society of whatever sort. A second less ambitious approach would be to offer two year work programs/four year work programs for youth such are currently limited to the military or for 4 year graduates such as Teach for America. These programs could offer a living wage while providing a non militaristic means of training our youth in responsibility, self presentation, work ethic… without turning them into “boot camp” drones.
Race relations are important…
Can’t cite the data, but am pretty sure a white man is more in danger of being killed by another white man than by any other race… am pretty sure a black man is more in danger of being killed by another black man than by any other race… am pretty sure a hispanic/latino man is more in danger of being killed by another hispanic/latino man than by any other race… am pretty sure an asian man is more in danger of being killed by another asian man than by any other race…
Worldwide, for example, a muslim man is more in danger of be killed by someone who either purports to be, or is, muslim, than someone of another belief system… ISIS, by far, has killed more muslims than all other faiths put together…
Years ago, particularly in Northern Ireland, a christian man was more likely to be killed by someone who either purports to be, or is a christian…
Yes, we should work on “race relations”, but until we focus on the HUMAN race, the rest is chipping off the tip on the big iceberg…
Police protocols, particularly related to use of force, transcend any racial aspects, in my opinion… yet, you are more likely to be killed by a ‘civilian’ of your own race, than you are of being killed by a police officer or ANY race…
“… OF any race.”
hpierce
https://www.fbi.gov/…homicide/expanded_homicide
This link from 2013 FBI data would tend to support your assertion.
My anecdotal impression from working 5 years in ER’s en route to my specialization would also confirm that the majority of violent attacks were on same race individuals.
HP said “Police protocols, particularly related to use of force, transcend any racial aspects”
Except when they are applied differently by race, gender, etc, or skill of the person applying them. We have 2 issues here, police protocols relating to use of force, AND when those protocols are not followed equally from one person to the next, for whatever reason, including race.
What the rest of us do to each other is also a major issue, but I think a different one in some respects. The police are supposed to be doing good, and they are in a position of power.
As for whether things are worse, the same or better; the pew piece shows it’s matter of perception, which influences reality. How can you actually measure reality?
Frankly, there is no doubt in my mind that improving the economics would address the issue to some degree. Desperation does not generally lead to a good outcome.
Ironic that the Dallas police chief had been working to reduce cop shooting and to improve community style policing. Here is your thanks for that.
It is not ironic at al. The whole point of the article is that we have to deal with this stuff more systematically because the guy wasn’t differentiating between good departments and bad ones. Also the assailant had apparently been stopped 31 times for traffic offenses. This leads to anger and frustration. Throw in an unstable person and you have a power keg. Surprised this stuff doesn’t happen more often.
Maybe the best way to not get pulled over for traffic offenses is to not commit traffic offenses. Sounds like this guy was not a quick learner. Are you saying that this man is not responsible for how he drives? With an unstable person, if its not traffic tickets, something else will tip him over the the edge–maybe stubbing his toe on the same place on the bathroom door each and every morning–a *#@*dern door installed by a white man!
Except often the stops are pretextual in nature and do not result in traffic citations. Therefore, you may not be committing a traffic offense. The other problem with your comment is everyone commits technical offenses and that leaves a lot to officer discretion. My brake light went out in my car once, I had no idea. I got pulled over by a police officer. No problem for me. But an illustration that your maxim may not work.
I don’t know that race relations have declined; but the perception that they have may be just as serious. I think this is due to a number of factors, including —
• Obama’s election led to some unrealistic expectations. When they weren’t all met, people felt let down and perceived things as, if not declining, at least short of what was hoped for.
• Many among the white majority felt threatened by Obama’s election. This gave rise to expressions of racism—some subtle (the birther movement, slogans such as “take our country back” or “make America great again”)’ and some not so subtle, like the racist depictions mentioned in the article.
• The growth of social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, and most significantly, cell phone video technology. Incidents that once could be dismissed (at least among the white majority) as anomalous (e.g., Rodney King) were shown to be widespread and all too commonplace, resulting in understandable anger and resentment.
So, race relations may or may not have declined. But, either way, there’s a long way to go and a lot of work to be done by all.
Agree with most of what you posted except this:
Change that to few if your point is that they were threatened by his being a half black man. Change that to about 50% if you mean because he is a devout socialist with no executive experience and a giant chip on his shoulder.
I guess one isn’t allowed to dislike Obama simply for the fact that he’s a bad president.
This isn’t meant to insinuate anything personal, but I would point out that the continual reference to Obama as “half black” is one of those subtle means of questioning his legitimacy and place in history as our first black President. Race is primarily a social construct, not a biological one. Most blacks in the U.S. are of mixed racial background. The black experience in this country has never been a function of the percentage of one’s African heritage.
Eric
I could not agree more with your statement that race is a societal construct. I would also add to your comments the fact that many “whites” are also of mixed “racial” background. I find it a huge irony of our society that people of all colors cite “pride” in their race as though it were a pure construct, and even more ironically, as though it is some personal virtue and not some serendipitous joining of sperm and egg.
Tia… am assuming “black pride”, “white pride”, “gay pride” all fit in your metric of the irony of “pride”…
Great point Hpierce.
I think your problem with the stated fact that Obama is half black of half white is resentment for the diminished good feelings you otherwise hold that he is a full member of an underdog victim class… And worthy of praise just for that.
Sad it is.
Because it should not matter. It does not matter.
Everyone is simply human.
To me it’s a question of performance against expectations. While African-Americans expect that there will be some change in policy the truth s that Obama is a driven, ambitious guy who likes to climb higher and has demonstrated no affinity for lower SES characteristics. So while his ethnic background may be African and American his pyschographic has no overlay of lower SES and his career models more an elitist white idealist than someone from the ‘hood. I believe it’s also important to note that Obama’s father was an African immigrant and not an “African American” and in fact has no relatives who are descended from slavery.
Re: “Obama’s father was an African immigrant and not an “African American” and in fact has no relatives who are descended from slavery.”–should be ammended to ‘no relatives who are descended from slavery in America’–slavery was common throughout Africa, by both the Arabs (slave capture and trading for commerce) and black tribes (prisoners of war were often made slaves). Slavery has been ubiquitous amongst all groups of humans of all races since before the dawn of civilization, and slavery persists up to the present day; though I’m not sure whether it is legal anywhere today–it is likely that everybody, or nearly everybody, has more than one ancestor who was a slave (and also at least one ancestor who was a slave owner!).
BP
“I guess one isn’t allowed to dislike Obama simply for the fact that he’s a bad president.”
That comment might have had some traction had he even been given a chance by the Republican leadership. But he was not. A no lesser figure in the Republican party than Mitch McConnell stated before Obama had even begun his presidency that the main Republican goal was to defeat him.
You can’t make up your own facts. McConnell made that statement in Oct. 2010, almost 2 years after Obama was president. Obama had instituted much of his Socialist agenda by then and McConnell made this statement as to why he wanted Obama to be a one term president:
Makes sense to me, with Obama wielding the veto pen the only way for the GOP to try and enact some of their laws was to make Obama one term president.
President Obama is not a socialist.
Thank you Don.
Thanks for putting so much work into this Don. Because Don says so.
BP
Excuse me but I believe that you are referencing only one quote from Mitch McConnell. I seem to recall that he was not was not supportive of the agenda of President Obama even when it was clear that he had won by a substantial majority. Thus my comment stands that Mr. McConnell was never supportive of the will of the majority of the voters in either the 2008 or 2012 elections but in effect ran an election nullification process rather than a loyal opposition process and continues to do so to this day.
Excuse me but your statement that “Mitch McConnell stated before Obama had even begun his presidency that the main Republican goal was to defeat him” was false. On your other assertion that McConnell wasn’t supportive tell me how many members of Congress are ever that supportive of the other party’s agenda?
Race relations is the topic of this article
“You can’t make up your own facts.”
Why not, you do it all the time, usually without any attribution or documentation.
“if you mean because he is a devout socialist with no executive experience and a giant chip on his shoulder.”
If only. I would have liked him so much more if he had really used his executive powers to screw the ridiculous right and made real strides in economic justice.
I love it when the do nothing-know nothings make such silly accusations, in lieu of any substantive comment. Get over boys, the next POTUS will be white, so you’ll need to make up a whole new list of imaginary slurs and slights.
What I stated was fact, China told me so. LMAO
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As much as I hate to say this, but I’d prefer a third term for the President than either of the “presumptive” alternatives…
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So, who will you support this fall, BP? Or will you be a coward and “take a pass” and not vote [or vote for the Libertarian or other minor party as a “protest vote”, so you can criticize ANY outcome?] Fish or cut bait…
I’ve already stated on here a few times that I’m voting for Trump.
Like I’ve said before, it’s a choice between a pile of sheeet (Trump) or an whole bucket of sheeet (Hillary)
Now back at cha, who are you voting for, or will you be a coward and “take a pass” and not vote [or vote for the Libertarian or other minor party as a “protest vote”, so you can criticize ANY outcome?] Fish or cut bait…
Fair response, so will respond in kind… I will (if it looks like a very close race) get out a pair of my best vise-grips to hold my nose (and ask my doctor for novacaine, as that would what I need to clamp my nose that tightly), and vote for Clinton. If Clinton is a clear winner, by electoral college projections, will vote for the Libertarian, as a protest vote. Trump has spouted rhetoric that reminds me of the protagonist of “All the Kings Men”, or those two guys in Italy and Germany in the 30’s. I may well vote Democrat for President, and Republican for House and Senate, to try to ensure that we don’t go off the deep end either way. If Trump looks like the winner, will vote a straight Democrat ‘down-ticket’.
Thank you for your honesty, though. My response is meant, in kind. And except one time, when I was in a hospital, right before an election, I have voted EVERY time, in EVERY election, since I was eligible in 1972.
“A spokesman for Sen. Ben Sasse (R-NE) said that the legislator and Donald Trump had a “gracious exchange” during a meeting Thursday, but that the election “remains a dumpster fire.””
I have met Bill Clinton and remain a big fan however I am not feeling Hilary. However it does not look like I will have much choice as I cannot vote for Trump and still live my life and Bernie is just a crazy old coot.
And what we can look forward to is the possibility of a President who has said that Mexicans coming over the border are rapists and/or criminals, who would ban all those of the Muslim faith, indefinitely, from entering this country… bodes VERY well for racial/religious/ethnic relations… NOT!
Particularly when some of the “trumpettes” posting here seem to think that religious faith = race/ethnicity…
I think you need to go back and re read what he really said and not what MSNBC and CNN says he said.
Frankly
I have offered an excerpt of what Trump said verbatim from his taped speech of June 16 th, 2015. It is easily found in several formats by Googling Trump speech on Mexican immigration
The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems.
Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
When people are criticizing Trump for his anti Mexican rhetoric, they are not twisting his words. They are taking him at his word.
I am not holding my nose and am not ashamed to be voting for Hillary Clinton.I am a strong and active supporter. It isn’t because I “like” or “trust” her. The reason is simple. I will consistently vote for the individual whose stated positions are the closest to my own and who I believe has the best shot at getting those positions enacted. I think that “trust” or voting because we like or do not like an individual on a personal basis ( the who would you rather have a beer with school of thought) is vastly overrated.
Trust is overrated?
Since when?
Since your preferred candidate isn’t very trustful at all?
Remember BP, liberals like Tia have been proven to process on the moral filters of fairness and oppression exclusively. Robin Hood can lie, cheat and steal… and probably even murder as long as it isn’t anybody in a registered victim class… as long he keeps the goods flowing to the needy… and then all is right (well, left) in the world.
Frankly, I found that amazing that trust doesn’t matter.
It’s not that trust doesn’t matter, it’s just trumped by other things.
BP – that is a dangerous tendency and frankly why modern liberalism can be so destructive to a country as the majority because they allow the ruling class get off for immoral and illicit behavior only if they pay-off the right classes of people. And then this allowance starts to attract more of the same that see they can do the same.
Frankly, was the clause “like Tia”, necessary? Or, just ‘personal’?
How about the ‘moral filters’ of financial advantage and ‘privilege’ exhibited by folk in your profession (think Lehman/Enron)[or, ‘conservatives’ (those in/on the “right”) in general?]? So is Hood Robin the guy who steals, lies and cheats from the middle class to give to the rich?
C’mon… make your points/opinions on facts, rather than extraneous rhetoric… you might find people will listen more… get a clue…
I do not agree with Tia often, nor do I with you. But, sometimes…
Frankly: I think conservatives should worry about their own problems. I mean Jesus Christ, you nominated Donald Trump.
Are you worried about your own problem?
As a registered independent, what do you consider my own problem?
Illustrative since Tia is the only liberal posting to admit she is a liberal and honestly puts her pie-in-the-sky utopian ideas out there for comparison. I respect her much more than others on this blog that say they are independent but opine so hard left that they can barely walk a straight line.
You see, typical liberal and DNC wogwash talking points.
First, no true conservative capitalist supported the bailouts. And they do not support the Hillary-style big business/ big government crony capitalism we see today.
Your big government sets the table for these large corporations to to stuff their faces and you blame the face-stuffers and not the table-setters. That is because of your political bias.
I really get tired of people that had their time in the public sector being made so comfortable in retirement at the expense of community budgets across the country to sit in judgement and demonize people that put their savings, capital at risk and worked their asses off to become successful… that now that success is somehow “stealing” from the poor. All I can think of when I read this stuff is that the writer is a leftist partisan idiot.
Even these lauded Scandinavian countries understand that private business and the entrepreneur and business owners needs to be honored and supported because without that being healthy there is no money to pay for your and other’s over-inflated retirement benefits and to fix all the roads and bridges and to fund our national defense.
Frankly
“liberals like Tia have been proven to process on the moral filters of fairness and oppression exclusively.”
Proven…..proven….? Really ? Let’s see your proof that all liberals think or process in a certain way. Note, I said proof, not some opinion of some author who happens to share your personal bias.
hpierce
“Tia… am assuming “black pride”, “white pride”, “gay pride” all fit in your metric of the irony of “pride”…”
Your assumption is correct. I think that anything that serves to divide humans, be it religion, race, gender, nationality…..you name it is inherently divisive. However, that does not mean that I do not think that humans continually try to get their own “side” more advantages than others have, and that in this country whites have been historically much more successful in this destructive endeavor than have other groups.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
All cultures are equal, but some cultures are more equal than others.
All races are equal, but some races are more equal than others.
All ideologies are equal, but some ideologies are more equal than others.
All genders are equal, but some genders are more equal than others.
All sexual orientations are equal, but some sexual orientations are more equal than others.
Assuming equal efforts, behaviors and circumstances we should expect materially similar outcomes for all people no matter the animal, the cultural origin, the race, ideology, gender or sexual orientation. But it does not always work out that way. And so we should ask why?
The recognized challenge should be to determine how best to govern to achieve the maximum materially similar outcomes for those with similar circumstances, behaviors and efforts.
Societies fail when governance attempts to force outcomes outside of similar circumstances, behaviors and efforts (Tia’s worldview). But societies also fail when the animal groups are become plagued with too many diverse circumstances, behaviors and efforts… because the animals become resentful over the unequal outcomes. This is where we seem to be today… a bunch of resentful animals.
Unfortunately for a growing segment of our population they are uninformed about what are the best and available circumstances, behaviors and efforts to help them achieve greater outcomes. And since our government is obsessed with only the outcomes, it is actually destroying opportunity and access to quality circumstances, behaviors and efforts.
Remember, corporations did not pass CRA, establish Freddie and Fannie and repeal Glass Steagall.
Remember, corporations did not pass international trade agreements.
Remember, corporations did not set environmental policy.
Remember, corporations did not protect the educations status quo.
Remember, corporations did not ignore the enforcement of immigration policy and laws.
Remember, corporations did not build tenement housing projects for the poor.
Remember, corporations did not make local governments over-spend on union labor and cause bankruptcies.
The problem we have today is a government attempting to force outcomes and pick winners and losers that has caused collapse of quality circumstances that leads to lower quality behaviors and efforts… and finally unequal outcomes.
And my friends on the left are demanding even more of the same government attempting to force outcomes and pick winners and losers.
The ONLY government help/intervention we should advocate for is that which improves the equality of access to good circumstances, behaviors and efforts. Then and only then will we actually see more animals being equal in outcomes.
BP
“Trust is overrated?
Since when?” “Frankly, I found that amazing that trust doesn’t matter.”
Since we began using the word “trust” to mean ” do what we would like them to do”. Trust with regard to political candidates is a very slippery term. Many people “trust” Trump because they confuse bombastic speech with “telling it like it is” which really only means saying things that they want to hear. And if you care about accuracy as you said you do, you will note that I didn’t say “trust doesn’t matter”, I said that I feel it is over rated.
So when one says they “trust” a candidate, what is it that they trust the candidate to do ? Do you trust Donald Trump to actually build an impassible wall and then force Mexico to pay for it ? If you do, I believe that you are engaging in self delusion. If you do not believe he will do this, does that make him a liar ? If you are using the “crooked Hillary standard”, it would have to. So do you trust a liar ? Or do you simply “trust” your preferred liar ?
My choice of candidate is not based on “trust”, whatever that means, but rather on closeness of positions to mine and whether or not I believe that the candidate will be able to deliver on those positions. Using that standard I will most certainly vote for Hillary, although I certainly share the sentiment that I would vastly prefer a third term for Obama.
Tia, I would answer but the moderator will delete my post for it supposedly being off topic even though you seem to be allowed to pontificate on and on about this off topic subject of Hillary’s trust.
Frankly
“Societies fail when governance attempts to force outcomes outside of similar circumstances, behaviors and efforts (Tia’s worldview).”
Are you ever going to quit ( erroneously) explaining to others what my world view is. These quotes you have chosen have absolutely nothing at all to do with my world view.
So, maybe you can explain your ideas for how the US should pay people for their work?
Geez Frankly, I know you must of heard this at least ten times by now.
I could probably recite it from memory.
It goes something like regardless if you’re a doctor or a hospital janitor you both are just as important to society and both should receive a great salary for your services.
Stay at home mothers should also be compensated by the gov’t because they perform a greatly needed service.
Anyone performing any service that benefits society should be compensated by the gov’t.
Etc….etc….etc…..
Am I close Tia?
Based on a conversation long ago about this topic, it is something like the unconditional basic income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
Don, I don’t think that is quite right. Tia, I think, would prefer that we provide everyone that works a similar rate of pay. At last that is how I understand it. So the doctor would make the same as the housekeeping professional on a per hour basis. I think she might have added some nuance to this to allow some variance in pay rate based on an assessment of some criteria that she has yet to sufficiently define. Needless to say it would be decided by some government commission or czar.
Believe it or not I am on-board with the unconditional basic income idea only if we completely secure our borders an no illegals gets it… and we cancel and delete every other social services benefit program for the poor.
And the basic income for able-bodied and minded adults is equal to what they would need in addition to the wages earned in a minimum wage job to have income just above the poverty line.
Sounds like “profiling” to me… given my and my ancestors going back 200 years, don’t even TRY to place “white guilt” on me or mine… unwarranted, unless we were not “active” enough in your view, to combat racism… how many of your ancestors actively participated in the “underground railroad” in the mid 1800’s [I had two, documented]? My grandparents, parents, I and my children never discriminated (based on RACE), and my grandparents took in Asian [Indian & Pakistani] boarders in their home in the 40’s-50’s… my spouse, I and are children are basically ‘color-blind’, and have dealt with people as individuals…
If you’re dealing with “white guilt” as part of the facts in your and/or your family’s past, just don’t try to lay that on my doorstep.
Obama certainly didn’t do what he promised the first time around, and those he most claimed he would help, are no better off.
The families which have been on welfare for generations are still on the dole. Sure, they now have an obamaphone, but do they have a job?
A handful, relatively, ended up with insurance who didn’t have it before… other lower middle class wage earners are paying through the nose for policies which are worse than before…
The “unemployment rate” is a sham…..many who lost work have never regained it, or are worker menial jobs as that is all there was.
The housing bubble and market crash only further split the divide between the haves and have nots…many lost their homes, and the wealthier and developers swooped in and bought up houses to rent…or flip.
The percentage of home owners in the US is at a record low.
Obama was FOR labeling GMOs, he said, but the fact that he also got considerable money from Monsanto, he changed his tune… The White House has organic gardens, serves grassfed beef, and those on “free lunches” are served, generally the GMOs that he stays away from.
How can anyone survive in this country on the pitiful wages and lack of services?
Unless one is a single mother, there are few options…therefore generations of single mothers raise young children whose fathers are not in the picture, have never worked and so on.
Obama supported “common core”, which makes even simple subjects too complicated for the average student…and if the student is bright, they will and do lose interest..
His daughters go to private school…they do not have to do that nonsense.
Truly, there is so much evidence that the “economy” and the “glory days of this economic turnaround” are a sham..
And, yet, it is continuing to get worse every day… young people cannot get work in their fields, and yet, fast food joints have taken over the landscape…..
This country is so much worse off during his presidency, and yet, many think it is all rosy….perhaps in Davis, or surrounding towns, which rely on the largesse of the university system to have a stable job, good benefits, and an attractive lifestyle…
But, one doesn’t have to go far to see that is not how it is in most of the US>>>>
as the economic divide widens, so increase the protests and the racial divides…
.it is convenient to blame immigrants, but statistics show that since 2013 more mexican families have headed back to Mexico than coming to the US>>>.
such lies everywhere and such shams….and many believe it ….
“A handful, relatively, ended up with insurance who didn’t have it before”
If you were a doctor, you would not see this as a “handful”. Ever since Obamacare went into effect, the health providers of Kaiser have been so inundated with patients that we quite literally cannot keep up with the hiring requirements. In my department alone we have in the past two years hired 7 new general Ob/Gyn providers and currently have funding for 10 more generalists. This does not count the new sub specialists of which there have been at least 5 in the past two years in Sacramento/Davis alone. This does not include South Sacramento or Vacaville. Nor does it include all the newly hired NP’s, PA’s, physical therapists, medical assistants and ancillary staff.
Whether Obamacare has been a success or failure or somewhere in-between is not a matter of fact, but rather of perspective. From mine, it has been a tremendous success in getting care to those who are most in need and in providing many, many new jobs needed to provide the care to those previously doing without.
“This country is so much worse off during his presidency, and yet, many think it is all rosy….perhaps in Davis, or surrounding towns, which rely on the largesse of the university system to have a stable job, good benefits, and an attractive lifestyle…”
I do not see this as a matter of living in Davis or not living in Davis. Yes, the University provides the majority of our local jobs, just as the presence of the Capitol in Sacramento provides for many of the jobs there and the presence of the County Court House in Woodland provides many jobs there. To me, this illustrates the misconception behind the notion that government does not provide jobs. This is patently false, yet frequently repeated. Our public school systems, civil government at many levels, National guard, military ( both arms bearing and non arms bearing), all provide many jobs and yet there are those who insist that this is not the case and that only the private sector creates jobs. This latter assertion is simply not true no matter how much some would like to believe it.
David: Re: ‘ My view is that President Obama isn’t causing the divide, but, rather, he’s reflecting the divide.’
Perhaps its not a matter of one or the other, but both: president Obama, as well as the mainstream media and activists, are both reflecting the divide and contributing to the divide.
For example, the Dallas cop-killer had stated that he was tired of black men getting killed by the police, and that he hated whites and wanted to kill them, especially white cops. I wonder if the major media had posted national stories about not only the two blacks shot by police, but also the seven whites who had been shot by police within the last week (as mentioned by Rifkin in a previous Vanguard thread), and presumably also a few hispanics that had been shot by police? Perhaps he might have understood that it is not only blacks who have been victims of excessive use of force by police. Within the last decade, adolescents (at college and I think high school level now) are taught (and the major media have consistently advanced the memes) that whites are a privileged class of oppressors that have conscious or unconscious bias against blacks and that can’t help but to commit racially-based micro-aggressions on a daily basis; that safe spaces are needed from the bad ‘ole whites!–what’s not to hate?
I think this post is spot on, and I think it is a testable hypothesis. You can ask people — of all races — if more whites or blacks are killed by the police each year in the U.S.? I’m sure people of all races would answer (incorrectly) that it is blacks. I think that would demonstrate that the big media narrative has misled the public as to what is going ton.
The only story of the national media is that cops are out to kill black people, never mind that five whites to every three blacks have been killed by cops in the last few years. As a result, when Asians, Hispanics or whites are killed, there is no national media coverage (though I presume each such case draws local coverage).
And proportionately blacks commit more crimes which also skews the statistics.
And, the folk who are charged/convicted also skews the statistics…
Those who over simplify, in ANY manner, racial ‘tendencies’, in ANY way, are probably cherry-picking the data… and in many cases, the data is lacking… particularly on socio-economic factors…
Tia, I usually agree with you, but in this case I think you are inside your bubble and blind to the outside struggles. When the govnt. creates jobs we just go more into debt as a state or country. And the benefits of that only go so far in stimulating the economy.
“Creates” jobs (new) or should we abolish/reduce some/all government jobs?
dlemongello
I realize that yours is the most predominant view in our society. But many other countries accept higher taxation rates and provide a far better social safety net than we do and are still functioning. I do not accept that we could not choose a more egalitarian model, only that we have not chosen to do so thus far. This leads us to believe that it is not possible and we have to make up reasons why it is possible for others, but not for us as Frankly frequently does.
As many times as you tell us this I think you would be much happier living in one of those countries.
The people of Scandinavian countries have some good stuff going for them. One reason is their pragmatism and understanding of economics. Get some of that stuff and then come back to advocate for adopting their models. I have a great book you should read… in fact everyone should read. Economics in One Lesson by by Henry Hazlitt.
I think these countries though are going down with immigration problems. That is the problem with Tia’s economic non-competitive utopia… it really does not exist… but it really, really does not exist when the country becomes culturally heterogeneous with a weak economy. Only a strong economy keeps the people of disparate cultures happy together. But at some point the ruling class will screw it all up and the tribes start to fight each other. That is where the US is today.
Frankly–yes, I think history shows that in multi-ethnic societies; inter-ethnic tensions and violence and ethnic-identity politics invariably tend to increase and erupt as the economy worsens–indeed, it is a retreat back to ones own tribe. Hopefully there won’t be a major downturn in the economy soon!
Sweden, in particular… sentiment is strong against refugees/immigrants… France, also…
The cluelessness of my social circle may be part of the reason. I frequently see people complaining about a medical bill and then advocate for single payor. They seem to think it would be free when in fact it would cost many people more money while saving some people big money. The people who would benefit are mostly in the lower SES and are less likely to be engaged. People who might have to pay more and don’t want to go to “VA Style” clinics are engaged and therefore prevail.
There is little affinity between those who are engaged in both politics and their own health and those that are not engaged and do not take care of themselves.
Then there is a child, declared brain dead by three independent doctors, and the parents want the death certificates reversed to have insurance cover all the costs of prolonging death, at the expense to all… see movie, “Frozen”… ‘Let it Go’…
My child works in a Children’s hospital, where some parents, with no insurance nor private financial resources, demand that the hospital keeps their child ‘nominally’ live, with no chance of survival without extraordinary/expensive measures. Forever…
Interesting results from a newly published Harvard study on race and policing, reported in NY Times this morning:
http://<a href=”http://Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings” rel=”nofollow”>http://Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings</a>
“That is the problem with Tia’s economic non-competitive utopia… it really does not exist”
And neither did automobiles before they were invented and made widely affordable. And neither did antibiotics until bactericidal/static properties of penicillin and some plants were discovered. And neither did space flight.
Because something does not currently exist, does not mean that we cannot envision, plan and ultimately achieve a better outcome. That is exactly what many believe the United States represented with its founding. A new way to exist as a nation.
With regard to dlemongello’s statement about my living “inside a bubble”. This is true in the sense that my statements are aspirational. I realize that this situation does not exist on a large scale at the present time. I refuse to admit that it could not exist if we humans were to so choose. We make our world. If we choose inequality and violence as we seem to be doing, then that is surely what we will have. I believe we can do better.
I think attitudes on interracial marriage is a pretty good measure of race relations.
A Gallup poll on June 2013 showed that 87% of respondents approve of black-white interracial marriages. This up from only 4% in 1958, and only 48% in as recent as 1995.
A Pew poll in June 2015 showed that 19% of mixed race persons see their mixed race as an advantage vs 4% seeing it as a disadvantage, and 76% seeing it as making no difference. Pew also found that the number of marriages between races has increased fourfold since 1980.
Asking for clarification on the Pew results… if the absolute # of inter-racial marriages increased 4 X, what about the %-age of marriages that were inter-racial? Could come to different conclusions with that figure…
The share of marriages of different races has increased fourfold from 1.6% in 1980 to 6.3% in 2013.
WesC wrote:
> The share of marriages of different races has increased
> fourfold from 1.6% in 1980 to 6.3% in 2013.
It is even higher for black NFL players…
20 years ago I was in SF for the 49er victory parade and we had fun playing the “spot the black wife or girlfriend” game. The only black wife I remember was Jerry Rice’s and he has since dumped her…
Thank you for the clarification… the “share” (%-age) is indeed the most telling number… and makes sense… I dated inter-racially 40 years ago… one of my sons has…
I married within my race, but that was due to the individual, not race…
I think that the attitudes toward interracial marriages indicate remendous improvement in race relations.
It is the war on the poor who happen to be disproportionatel black that has accelerated. I find it interesting that no one wants to discuss or factor in socioeconomic level when examining the criminal justice treatment of different racial groups.
Agree WesC. It is 90% economics… on many levels.
WesC
“ I find it interesting that no one wants to discuss or factor in socioeconomic level when examining the criminal justice treatment of different racial groups.”
Who is this “no one” of whom you speak. We have the discussion of the role of race vs socioeconomic position frequently here on the Vanguard. I listen to NPR on my way to work daily and frequently hear this point addressed. The New York Times has had a number of articles and opinion pieces over the years that address both race and socioeconomic status as factors related to disparity in various aspects of our society.
Somebody posted a broken link to this article. Let’s hear from those that are absolutely sure that the cops have a racial bias to shoot blacks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
Frankly–thanks for the link–good article and very good statistical study (they even had confidence intervals shown for some of the results!) I would hope that there are more studies like this–I don’t see why the FBI and/or CDC can’t do a comprehensive statistical study like this for all cities and large towns in the USA (and later maybe even smaller towns), given the level of public concern and inflammatory uproar around this issue.
Hopefully more of the mainstream article will pick up on this as a leading story, and that activist group members and leaders are exposed to this information as well. Perhaps those instances where use of force seems (accurately or inaccurately) to look excessive can be an issue that can serve to help unite all races (particularly the poor of all races, who have more encounters with the police), instead of an issue of finger-pointing by activists against presumed- ‘racist’ white cops.
Yes Tia many a study has compared race and socioeconomic status, and many have looked at race and sentencing for the same or similar crimes. I am aware of none that have looked at the same or similar crime committed by different races who are of the same socionomic status and what the outcome was. I think it is pretty safe to assume that a white meth dealer from the suburbs with resources to afford a very good attorney will get a lighter sentence than a black dealer from the projects with a public defender, and it has very little to do with race.
I just became a fan of Richard Sherman after he posted the following in response to someone named King Nobel, some BLM activist, that used his unauthorized image on a website:
Then he followed up with a more PC message that was still good:
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/9/16/9340851/nfl-richard-sherman-seattle-seahawks-video-black-lives-matter