Impressions of the First Presidential Debate

Debates are always and invariably not about substance per se, they are often not even about performance, although sometimes they can become about both. I remember vividly four years ago in the first debate, the President George W. Bush looked disinterested, looking at his watch, listless, and uninformed. While he would end up winning the election, his performance at the time put John Kerry back in the game.

I did not get the sense anything quite as dramatic happened last night, but I do think from my biased and partisan perception that on the substance of the debate it was probably as a close to a draw as Obama could have hoped for. However, on the intangibles, McCain may have hurt himself depending on how the viewing public perceived it.

The first point, I think both McCain and Obama did a good job making the points that they wanted to make on both the economy and foreign policy. There was criticism of both that they were not able to articulate the magnitude of the crisis facing the country the past two weeks as the result of the financial crisis that hit Wall Street. Some of that is to be expected because the situation is so fluid and so difficult to assess.

Jim Lehrer, the moderator, for his part tried to pin the candidates down on how the crisis and the potential bailout would change the priorities of the candidates. Neither answered his questions directly. In part of course because they do not know the answer.

The second point though I think is the real pitfall that may harm McCain’s standing–or at least has the potential to do so. My impression is that he was rude and condescending in his efforts to demonstrate to the public that he was an expert and Obama was inexperienced and green. Time and time again, he lectured like a professor explaining that Obama did not understand. Time and time again, again to this partisan, it appeared less like Obama did not understand and more like Obama did not agree.

The New York Times analysis bears this out:

More than anything, Mr. McCain seemed intent on presenting Mr. Obama as green and inexperienced, a risky choice during a difficult time. Again and again, sounding almost like a professor talking down to a new student, he talked about having to explain foreign policy to Mr. Obama and repeatedly invoked his 30 years of history on national security (even though Mr. McCain, in the kind of misstep that no doubt would have been used by Republicans against Mr. Obama, mangled the name of the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and he stumbled over the name of Pakistan’s newly inaugurated president, calling him “Qadari.” His name is actually Asif Ali Zardari.).

“I don’t think I need any on-the-job training,” Mr. McCain said in the closing moments of the debate. “I’m ready to go at it right now.”

But Mr. Obama seemed calm and in control and seemed to hold his own on foreign policy, the subject on which Mr. McCain was assumed to hold a natural advantage. Mr. Obama talked in detail about foreign countries and their leaders, as if trying to assure the audience that he could hold his own on the world stage. He raised his own questions about Mr. McCain’s judgment in supporting the Iraq war.

“You like to pretend like the war started in 2007 — you talk about the surge. The war started in 2003,” Mr. Obama said. “At the time, when the war started, you said it was going to be quick and easy. You said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were. You were wrong. You said that we were going to be greeted as liberators. You were wrong.”

On the latter point, I think was Obama at his best when he was able to articulate his position on Iraq. This is a key for McCain–the fact that he backed the surge and the surge has successfully reduced violence in Iraq. However, Obama’s counter was strong–he focused time and time again on Iraq as a distraction and Iraq as a place that we should not have gone and that has weakened our standing in the international community.

People disagree on these points, and that’s fine. However, Obama did not equivocate on his position, he did not back down from it, and from that standpoint, he did exceedingly well.

Obama from the beginning to the end, I think did a good job of deflecting some of the distortions in his record. One of my favorite points was when he said that the only reason his record looks so liberal is that he was voting against Bush’s policies.

The New York Times analysis suggests that this was no clear winner here–I agree.

“There were no obvious game-changing moments — big mistakes, or the kind of sound bites that dominate the news for days — in the course of the 90-minute debate, held at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. Still, the debate served as a reminder of just how different these two men would be as president as they appeared for their first extended session together before a huge audience, including many Americans who are just beginning to focus on this long-lasting race.”

However, from that standpoint, again from my biased perception, Obama comes away better off than McCain. This was supposed to be McCain’s territory. McCain came away looking knowledgeable about foreign policy. Obama came away looking like he could hold his own. He came away looking less than risky and more confident and assertive. That is exactly what Obama needed to do on this venue which appeared at the beginning to be stacked against him. Obama did not need to win on points here, he needed to not look outclassed. And he succeeded from my perceptive.

The big question is whether or not McCain’s tone and seeming arrogance and condescension will harm him. It will also be interesting to see the Vice Presidential debate next week. For those who watched the Charlie Gibson interview with Sarah Palin, I was singularly unimpressed with her command of the issues. Joe Biden is one of the most knowledgeable people on world issues and Washington Policy. Will Sarah Palin look completely outclassed as Dan Quayle looked against Lloyd Bentsen in 1988 or will she be able to hold her own? That may be crucial to determining whether or not McCain can come back in this race.

—Doug Paul Davis reporting

Author

  • David Greenwald

    Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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Elections

252 comments

  1. McCain
    He criticized Obama for saying he’d be willing to unilaterally strike at terrorist targets inside Pakistan’s borders if the Pakistani government would not cooperate. And he scolded Obama for saying he’d meet with leaders like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    What have been our foreign policy failures?-

    We were attacked and we failed to pursue our attackers in an all out fashion. Instead we got mired down in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.

    Meanwhile we stopped talking to prople- we have turned our backs on countries like France because they diagreed with our action in Iraq. So we have stopped talking to our allies and we refuse to talk to our advisaries (Korea & Iran) because we lack "preconditions" (excuse for not talking).

    Result- We have not captured our enemy, we have lost standing in the world (leadership and moral), we have wasted resources and we have not prevented our enemy and advisaries from getting stronger. Too much focus on one thing and not enough focus on everything else.

    Based on the debate it was obvious Obama would change direction and allMcCain could say was "we need to stay the course" and Obama "-)oes not understand".

    I am all for change!!!

  2. McCain
    He criticized Obama for saying he’d be willing to unilaterally strike at terrorist targets inside Pakistan’s borders if the Pakistani government would not cooperate. And he scolded Obama for saying he’d meet with leaders like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    What have been our foreign policy failures?-

    We were attacked and we failed to pursue our attackers in an all out fashion. Instead we got mired down in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.

    Meanwhile we stopped talking to prople- we have turned our backs on countries like France because they diagreed with our action in Iraq. So we have stopped talking to our allies and we refuse to talk to our advisaries (Korea & Iran) because we lack "preconditions" (excuse for not talking).

    Result- We have not captured our enemy, we have lost standing in the world (leadership and moral), we have wasted resources and we have not prevented our enemy and advisaries from getting stronger. Too much focus on one thing and not enough focus on everything else.

    Based on the debate it was obvious Obama would change direction and allMcCain could say was "we need to stay the course" and Obama "-)oes not understand".

    I am all for change!!!

  3. McCain
    He criticized Obama for saying he’d be willing to unilaterally strike at terrorist targets inside Pakistan’s borders if the Pakistani government would not cooperate. And he scolded Obama for saying he’d meet with leaders like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    What have been our foreign policy failures?-

    We were attacked and we failed to pursue our attackers in an all out fashion. Instead we got mired down in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.

    Meanwhile we stopped talking to prople- we have turned our backs on countries like France because they diagreed with our action in Iraq. So we have stopped talking to our allies and we refuse to talk to our advisaries (Korea & Iran) because we lack "preconditions" (excuse for not talking).

    Result- We have not captured our enemy, we have lost standing in the world (leadership and moral), we have wasted resources and we have not prevented our enemy and advisaries from getting stronger. Too much focus on one thing and not enough focus on everything else.

    Based on the debate it was obvious Obama would change direction and allMcCain could say was "we need to stay the course" and Obama "-)oes not understand".

    I am all for change!!!

  4. McCain
    He criticized Obama for saying he’d be willing to unilaterally strike at terrorist targets inside Pakistan’s borders if the Pakistani government would not cooperate. And he scolded Obama for saying he’d meet with leaders like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    What have been our foreign policy failures?-

    We were attacked and we failed to pursue our attackers in an all out fashion. Instead we got mired down in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.

    Meanwhile we stopped talking to prople- we have turned our backs on countries like France because they diagreed with our action in Iraq. So we have stopped talking to our allies and we refuse to talk to our advisaries (Korea & Iran) because we lack "preconditions" (excuse for not talking).

    Result- We have not captured our enemy, we have lost standing in the world (leadership and moral), we have wasted resources and we have not prevented our enemy and advisaries from getting stronger. Too much focus on one thing and not enough focus on everything else.

    Based on the debate it was obvious Obama would change direction and allMcCain could say was "we need to stay the course" and Obama "-)oes not understand".

    I am all for change!!!

  5. Wow! Anonymous for change, you are awsome. You have said it all as far as I am concerned although I am concerned that Obama has repeated that he would go into Pakistan without covering himself. A statement regarding qualifying conditions and recognizing potential of a war with nuclear armed Pakistan.

  6. Wow! Anonymous for change, you are awsome. You have said it all as far as I am concerned although I am concerned that Obama has repeated that he would go into Pakistan without covering himself. A statement regarding qualifying conditions and recognizing potential of a war with nuclear armed Pakistan.

  7. Wow! Anonymous for change, you are awsome. You have said it all as far as I am concerned although I am concerned that Obama has repeated that he would go into Pakistan without covering himself. A statement regarding qualifying conditions and recognizing potential of a war with nuclear armed Pakistan.

  8. Wow! Anonymous for change, you are awsome. You have said it all as far as I am concerned although I am concerned that Obama has repeated that he would go into Pakistan without covering himself. A statement regarding qualifying conditions and recognizing potential of a war with nuclear armed Pakistan.

  9. Stop by the Obama campaign headquarters(on Hanover Pl.,behind the old Alberson’s market on Anderson) and volunteer to work on voter registration in Davis and, more importantly, volunteer to go to Northern Nevada and make a difference in that battleground swing state.

  10. Stop by the Obama campaign headquarters(on Hanover Pl.,behind the old Alberson’s market on Anderson) and volunteer to work on voter registration in Davis and, more importantly, volunteer to go to Northern Nevada and make a difference in that battleground swing state.

  11. Stop by the Obama campaign headquarters(on Hanover Pl.,behind the old Alberson’s market on Anderson) and volunteer to work on voter registration in Davis and, more importantly, volunteer to go to Northern Nevada and make a difference in that battleground swing state.

  12. Stop by the Obama campaign headquarters(on Hanover Pl.,behind the old Alberson’s market on Anderson) and volunteer to work on voter registration in Davis and, more importantly, volunteer to go to Northern Nevada and make a difference in that battleground swing state.

  13. I think it was a draw, in that I doubt it will move the polls one way or the other.

    However, I think on technical grounds — that is, completeness of answers and details — Obama was better. But technical victories are hollow in our elections. What both men (especially Obama) lacked was humor.

    As Obama went over point after point, I kept thinking about the best politician of my lifetime: “I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.”

    Reagan (by 1984) seemed to be losing it mentally. (He was actually a very bright guy when he was younger.) Yet he knew what the people wanted: someone who was jovial and likeable. He probably didn’t write that joke. That didn’t matter. Reagan could deliver a line. I think Obama could use one of Reagan’s joke writers in the next debate.

  14. I think it was a draw, in that I doubt it will move the polls one way or the other.

    However, I think on technical grounds — that is, completeness of answers and details — Obama was better. But technical victories are hollow in our elections. What both men (especially Obama) lacked was humor.

    As Obama went over point after point, I kept thinking about the best politician of my lifetime: “I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.”

    Reagan (by 1984) seemed to be losing it mentally. (He was actually a very bright guy when he was younger.) Yet he knew what the people wanted: someone who was jovial and likeable. He probably didn’t write that joke. That didn’t matter. Reagan could deliver a line. I think Obama could use one of Reagan’s joke writers in the next debate.

  15. I think it was a draw, in that I doubt it will move the polls one way or the other.

    However, I think on technical grounds — that is, completeness of answers and details — Obama was better. But technical victories are hollow in our elections. What both men (especially Obama) lacked was humor.

    As Obama went over point after point, I kept thinking about the best politician of my lifetime: “I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.”

    Reagan (by 1984) seemed to be losing it mentally. (He was actually a very bright guy when he was younger.) Yet he knew what the people wanted: someone who was jovial and likeable. He probably didn’t write that joke. That didn’t matter. Reagan could deliver a line. I think Obama could use one of Reagan’s joke writers in the next debate.

  16. I think it was a draw, in that I doubt it will move the polls one way or the other.

    However, I think on technical grounds — that is, completeness of answers and details — Obama was better. But technical victories are hollow in our elections. What both men (especially Obama) lacked was humor.

    As Obama went over point after point, I kept thinking about the best politician of my lifetime: “I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.”

    Reagan (by 1984) seemed to be losing it mentally. (He was actually a very bright guy when he was younger.) Yet he knew what the people wanted: someone who was jovial and likeable. He probably didn’t write that joke. That didn’t matter. Reagan could deliver a line. I think Obama could use one of Reagan’s joke writers in the next debate.

  17. For those who have already made up their minds, the debate didn’t change anything. For those on the fence in the swing states, I think McCain probably fared better. Obama seemed a little too defensive and intangible things like facial expressions were more obvious, not that McCain’s weren’t either. The debate didn’t change my decision but McCain was a stronger debater than I expected and Obama was a bit weaker than I had hoped. He’s better in a setting where he has more control over his message.

  18. For those who have already made up their minds, the debate didn’t change anything. For those on the fence in the swing states, I think McCain probably fared better. Obama seemed a little too defensive and intangible things like facial expressions were more obvious, not that McCain’s weren’t either. The debate didn’t change my decision but McCain was a stronger debater than I expected and Obama was a bit weaker than I had hoped. He’s better in a setting where he has more control over his message.

  19. For those who have already made up their minds, the debate didn’t change anything. For those on the fence in the swing states, I think McCain probably fared better. Obama seemed a little too defensive and intangible things like facial expressions were more obvious, not that McCain’s weren’t either. The debate didn’t change my decision but McCain was a stronger debater than I expected and Obama was a bit weaker than I had hoped. He’s better in a setting where he has more control over his message.

  20. For those who have already made up their minds, the debate didn’t change anything. For those on the fence in the swing states, I think McCain probably fared better. Obama seemed a little too defensive and intangible things like facial expressions were more obvious, not that McCain’s weren’t either. The debate didn’t change my decision but McCain was a stronger debater than I expected and Obama was a bit weaker than I had hoped. He’s better in a setting where he has more control over his message.

  21. McCain has more experience and does not make general statements like,We need change. What is OBama referring to as change? What is the plan he has laid out, in detail? Is he making it up as he goes along? Obama says a lot of nice words.
    Perhaps Obama took a page from Lamar Heystek’s book, “It is a new day”. We have’nt heard or seen much of Lamar or Lamar’s new day since he was elected.

  22. McCain has more experience and does not make general statements like,We need change. What is OBama referring to as change? What is the plan he has laid out, in detail? Is he making it up as he goes along? Obama says a lot of nice words.
    Perhaps Obama took a page from Lamar Heystek’s book, “It is a new day”. We have’nt heard or seen much of Lamar or Lamar’s new day since he was elected.

  23. McCain has more experience and does not make general statements like,We need change. What is OBama referring to as change? What is the plan he has laid out, in detail? Is he making it up as he goes along? Obama says a lot of nice words.
    Perhaps Obama took a page from Lamar Heystek’s book, “It is a new day”. We have’nt heard or seen much of Lamar or Lamar’s new day since he was elected.

  24. McCain has more experience and does not make general statements like,We need change. What is OBama referring to as change? What is the plan he has laid out, in detail? Is he making it up as he goes along? Obama says a lot of nice words.
    Perhaps Obama took a page from Lamar Heystek’s book, “It is a new day”. We have’nt heard or seen much of Lamar or Lamar’s new day since he was elected.

  25. Does being a Democratic partisan mean that you don’t hold your candidate accountable to the truth? During the debates, both candidates repeated the lie that Russia was unprovoked when it invaded its neighbor. However, on Aug. 7, 2008, it was actually Georgia that bombarded and invaded South Ossetia killing over 1,600 people. Russia supported the South Ossetians and launched a major counter attack forcing the Georgian army to retreat. This has been well reported on in Reuters and other international media. If Obama is for “change”, then why does he persist in lying to the American people just like Bush? War with Russia, anyone?

  26. Does being a Democratic partisan mean that you don’t hold your candidate accountable to the truth? During the debates, both candidates repeated the lie that Russia was unprovoked when it invaded its neighbor. However, on Aug. 7, 2008, it was actually Georgia that bombarded and invaded South Ossetia killing over 1,600 people. Russia supported the South Ossetians and launched a major counter attack forcing the Georgian army to retreat. This has been well reported on in Reuters and other international media. If Obama is for “change”, then why does he persist in lying to the American people just like Bush? War with Russia, anyone?

  27. Does being a Democratic partisan mean that you don’t hold your candidate accountable to the truth? During the debates, both candidates repeated the lie that Russia was unprovoked when it invaded its neighbor. However, on Aug. 7, 2008, it was actually Georgia that bombarded and invaded South Ossetia killing over 1,600 people. Russia supported the South Ossetians and launched a major counter attack forcing the Georgian army to retreat. This has been well reported on in Reuters and other international media. If Obama is for “change”, then why does he persist in lying to the American people just like Bush? War with Russia, anyone?

  28. Does being a Democratic partisan mean that you don’t hold your candidate accountable to the truth? During the debates, both candidates repeated the lie that Russia was unprovoked when it invaded its neighbor. However, on Aug. 7, 2008, it was actually Georgia that bombarded and invaded South Ossetia killing over 1,600 people. Russia supported the South Ossetians and launched a major counter attack forcing the Georgian army to retreat. This has been well reported on in Reuters and other international media. If Obama is for “change”, then why does he persist in lying to the American people just like Bush? War with Russia, anyone?

  29. The defense of Russia’s aggressian by Anonymous 3:28 is embarrassingly ignorant. Even Putin’s supporters in his fascist regime have said their dictator is following the same script in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia that Adolf Hitler used when he seized the Sudetenland in Czechosolvakia.

    Like Mr. Hitler before him, Putin’s agents have been stirring up trouble on his country’ borders in order “to protect Russian minorities.” To think “the people” in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia want a divorce from Georgia is wrong. “The people” are agents of the KGB and a small percentage of ethnic Russians who constitute a minority of the population in these majority-Georgian states.

    Hitler did the same for ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, before he completely obliterated his neighbor. It’s good to see Hitler and Putin have a fan on the Vanguard.

    This is what Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote about Mr. Putin’s tactics in Georgia:

    “In recent years, the Kremlin had escalated its interference in Georgia’s territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia – bombing Georgian territory twice last year, illegally extending Russian citizenship to residents there, and appointing Russian security officers to their self-declared governments. South Ossetia’s government in particular is practically under Moscow’s direct control, with little if any ability to act independently.

    “But this flare-up is a direct consequence of Russia’s deliberate and recent efforts to engage its small neighbor in military conflict. In April, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin signed a decree effectively beginning to treat Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This land grab was a particularly galling move because Russia is in charge of both the peacekeeping operations in the conflict zones, and the negotiations over their political resolution. The mediator had now clearly become a direct party to the conflict.

    “Moscow then sent paratroopers, heavy weapons and other troops into Abkhazia. Although these measures constituted military occupation of Georgian territory, Georgia failed to respond militarily. Instead, with European aspirations in mind, Georgian leaders listened to western calls for restraint, and put their faith in half-hearted western diplomatic initiatives.

    “Having failed to provoke Georgia to a war in Abkhazia, the Kremlin then tried in South Ossetia. Its proxies, the Ossetian separatist forces, escalated their attacks on Georgian posts and villages, making a response inevitable. Predictably, Moscow claimed a right to intervene, pouring Russian tanks into the area and bombing Georgian territory – including the country’s capital.”

  30. The defense of Russia’s aggressian by Anonymous 3:28 is embarrassingly ignorant. Even Putin’s supporters in his fascist regime have said their dictator is following the same script in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia that Adolf Hitler used when he seized the Sudetenland in Czechosolvakia.

    Like Mr. Hitler before him, Putin’s agents have been stirring up trouble on his country’ borders in order “to protect Russian minorities.” To think “the people” in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia want a divorce from Georgia is wrong. “The people” are agents of the KGB and a small percentage of ethnic Russians who constitute a minority of the population in these majority-Georgian states.

    Hitler did the same for ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, before he completely obliterated his neighbor. It’s good to see Hitler and Putin have a fan on the Vanguard.

    This is what Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote about Mr. Putin’s tactics in Georgia:

    “In recent years, the Kremlin had escalated its interference in Georgia’s territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia – bombing Georgian territory twice last year, illegally extending Russian citizenship to residents there, and appointing Russian security officers to their self-declared governments. South Ossetia’s government in particular is practically under Moscow’s direct control, with little if any ability to act independently.

    “But this flare-up is a direct consequence of Russia’s deliberate and recent efforts to engage its small neighbor in military conflict. In April, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin signed a decree effectively beginning to treat Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This land grab was a particularly galling move because Russia is in charge of both the peacekeeping operations in the conflict zones, and the negotiations over their political resolution. The mediator had now clearly become a direct party to the conflict.

    “Moscow then sent paratroopers, heavy weapons and other troops into Abkhazia. Although these measures constituted military occupation of Georgian territory, Georgia failed to respond militarily. Instead, with European aspirations in mind, Georgian leaders listened to western calls for restraint, and put their faith in half-hearted western diplomatic initiatives.

    “Having failed to provoke Georgia to a war in Abkhazia, the Kremlin then tried in South Ossetia. Its proxies, the Ossetian separatist forces, escalated their attacks on Georgian posts and villages, making a response inevitable. Predictably, Moscow claimed a right to intervene, pouring Russian tanks into the area and bombing Georgian territory – including the country’s capital.”

  31. The defense of Russia’s aggressian by Anonymous 3:28 is embarrassingly ignorant. Even Putin’s supporters in his fascist regime have said their dictator is following the same script in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia that Adolf Hitler used when he seized the Sudetenland in Czechosolvakia.

    Like Mr. Hitler before him, Putin’s agents have been stirring up trouble on his country’ borders in order “to protect Russian minorities.” To think “the people” in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia want a divorce from Georgia is wrong. “The people” are agents of the KGB and a small percentage of ethnic Russians who constitute a minority of the population in these majority-Georgian states.

    Hitler did the same for ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, before he completely obliterated his neighbor. It’s good to see Hitler and Putin have a fan on the Vanguard.

    This is what Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote about Mr. Putin’s tactics in Georgia:

    “In recent years, the Kremlin had escalated its interference in Georgia’s territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia – bombing Georgian territory twice last year, illegally extending Russian citizenship to residents there, and appointing Russian security officers to their self-declared governments. South Ossetia’s government in particular is practically under Moscow’s direct control, with little if any ability to act independently.

    “But this flare-up is a direct consequence of Russia’s deliberate and recent efforts to engage its small neighbor in military conflict. In April, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin signed a decree effectively beginning to treat Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This land grab was a particularly galling move because Russia is in charge of both the peacekeeping operations in the conflict zones, and the negotiations over their political resolution. The mediator had now clearly become a direct party to the conflict.

    “Moscow then sent paratroopers, heavy weapons and other troops into Abkhazia. Although these measures constituted military occupation of Georgian territory, Georgia failed to respond militarily. Instead, with European aspirations in mind, Georgian leaders listened to western calls for restraint, and put their faith in half-hearted western diplomatic initiatives.

    “Having failed to provoke Georgia to a war in Abkhazia, the Kremlin then tried in South Ossetia. Its proxies, the Ossetian separatist forces, escalated their attacks on Georgian posts and villages, making a response inevitable. Predictably, Moscow claimed a right to intervene, pouring Russian tanks into the area and bombing Georgian territory – including the country’s capital.”

  32. The defense of Russia’s aggressian by Anonymous 3:28 is embarrassingly ignorant. Even Putin’s supporters in his fascist regime have said their dictator is following the same script in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia that Adolf Hitler used when he seized the Sudetenland in Czechosolvakia.

    Like Mr. Hitler before him, Putin’s agents have been stirring up trouble on his country’ borders in order “to protect Russian minorities.” To think “the people” in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia want a divorce from Georgia is wrong. “The people” are agents of the KGB and a small percentage of ethnic Russians who constitute a minority of the population in these majority-Georgian states.

    Hitler did the same for ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, before he completely obliterated his neighbor. It’s good to see Hitler and Putin have a fan on the Vanguard.

    This is what Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote about Mr. Putin’s tactics in Georgia:

    “In recent years, the Kremlin had escalated its interference in Georgia’s territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia – bombing Georgian territory twice last year, illegally extending Russian citizenship to residents there, and appointing Russian security officers to their self-declared governments. South Ossetia’s government in particular is practically under Moscow’s direct control, with little if any ability to act independently.

    “But this flare-up is a direct consequence of Russia’s deliberate and recent efforts to engage its small neighbor in military conflict. In April, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin signed a decree effectively beginning to treat Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This land grab was a particularly galling move because Russia is in charge of both the peacekeeping operations in the conflict zones, and the negotiations over their political resolution. The mediator had now clearly become a direct party to the conflict.

    “Moscow then sent paratroopers, heavy weapons and other troops into Abkhazia. Although these measures constituted military occupation of Georgian territory, Georgia failed to respond militarily. Instead, with European aspirations in mind, Georgian leaders listened to western calls for restraint, and put their faith in half-hearted western diplomatic initiatives.

    “Having failed to provoke Georgia to a war in Abkhazia, the Kremlin then tried in South Ossetia. Its proxies, the Ossetian separatist forces, escalated their attacks on Georgian posts and villages, making a response inevitable. Predictably, Moscow claimed a right to intervene, pouring Russian tanks into the area and bombing Georgian territory – including the country’s capital.”

  33. Hey Friend of Putin:
    Boy, that really flushed you out! I can throw out quotes from newspapers too! Like:

    ‘While Israel was keen to downplay its role, Georgia perhaps hoped that flattery might draw Israel further in. Georgian minister Temur Yakobashvili — whom the Israeli daily Haaretz stressed was Jewish — told Israeli army radio that “Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers.” Yakobashvili claimed rather implausibly, according to Haaretz, that “a small group of Georgian soldiers were able to wipe out an entire Russian military division, thanks to the Israeli training” (“Georgian minister tells Israel Radio: Thanks to Israeli training, we’re fending off Russian military,” Haaretz, 11 August 2008)
    and:
    Since 2000, Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in arms and combat training to Georgia. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, antiaircraft systems, automatic turrets for armored vehicles, electronic equipment and remotely piloted aircraft. These sales were authorized by the Israeli defense ministry (Arie Egozi, “War in Georgia: The Israeli connection,” Ynet, 10 August 2008).

    “So it would be interesting to know what President Saakashvili was thinking when, on Thursday night, after days of relatively low-level shelling around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali (which both South Ossetians and Georgians blamed on each other), and literally hours after he announced on state-controlled TV the cessation of hostilities, he ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s”.
    Nixon Center President, Dimitri K. Simes

    My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country. You may not like Putin, but we should be looking for ways to work with Russia instead of antagonizing a country with nuclear weapons. Anyway, I hate being lied to and talked down to. Oh yeah, and calling someone a “Hitler-lover” because you disagree with them is really weak.

  34. Hey Friend of Putin:
    Boy, that really flushed you out! I can throw out quotes from newspapers too! Like:

    ‘While Israel was keen to downplay its role, Georgia perhaps hoped that flattery might draw Israel further in. Georgian minister Temur Yakobashvili — whom the Israeli daily Haaretz stressed was Jewish — told Israeli army radio that “Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers.” Yakobashvili claimed rather implausibly, according to Haaretz, that “a small group of Georgian soldiers were able to wipe out an entire Russian military division, thanks to the Israeli training” (“Georgian minister tells Israel Radio: Thanks to Israeli training, we’re fending off Russian military,” Haaretz, 11 August 2008)
    and:
    Since 2000, Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in arms and combat training to Georgia. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, antiaircraft systems, automatic turrets for armored vehicles, electronic equipment and remotely piloted aircraft. These sales were authorized by the Israeli defense ministry (Arie Egozi, “War in Georgia: The Israeli connection,” Ynet, 10 August 2008).

    “So it would be interesting to know what President Saakashvili was thinking when, on Thursday night, after days of relatively low-level shelling around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali (which both South Ossetians and Georgians blamed on each other), and literally hours after he announced on state-controlled TV the cessation of hostilities, he ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s”.
    Nixon Center President, Dimitri K. Simes

    My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country. You may not like Putin, but we should be looking for ways to work with Russia instead of antagonizing a country with nuclear weapons. Anyway, I hate being lied to and talked down to. Oh yeah, and calling someone a “Hitler-lover” because you disagree with them is really weak.

  35. Hey Friend of Putin:
    Boy, that really flushed you out! I can throw out quotes from newspapers too! Like:

    ‘While Israel was keen to downplay its role, Georgia perhaps hoped that flattery might draw Israel further in. Georgian minister Temur Yakobashvili — whom the Israeli daily Haaretz stressed was Jewish — told Israeli army radio that “Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers.” Yakobashvili claimed rather implausibly, according to Haaretz, that “a small group of Georgian soldiers were able to wipe out an entire Russian military division, thanks to the Israeli training” (“Georgian minister tells Israel Radio: Thanks to Israeli training, we’re fending off Russian military,” Haaretz, 11 August 2008)
    and:
    Since 2000, Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in arms and combat training to Georgia. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, antiaircraft systems, automatic turrets for armored vehicles, electronic equipment and remotely piloted aircraft. These sales were authorized by the Israeli defense ministry (Arie Egozi, “War in Georgia: The Israeli connection,” Ynet, 10 August 2008).

    “So it would be interesting to know what President Saakashvili was thinking when, on Thursday night, after days of relatively low-level shelling around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali (which both South Ossetians and Georgians blamed on each other), and literally hours after he announced on state-controlled TV the cessation of hostilities, he ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s”.
    Nixon Center President, Dimitri K. Simes

    My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country. You may not like Putin, but we should be looking for ways to work with Russia instead of antagonizing a country with nuclear weapons. Anyway, I hate being lied to and talked down to. Oh yeah, and calling someone a “Hitler-lover” because you disagree with them is really weak.

  36. Hey Friend of Putin:
    Boy, that really flushed you out! I can throw out quotes from newspapers too! Like:

    ‘While Israel was keen to downplay its role, Georgia perhaps hoped that flattery might draw Israel further in. Georgian minister Temur Yakobashvili — whom the Israeli daily Haaretz stressed was Jewish — told Israeli army radio that “Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers.” Yakobashvili claimed rather implausibly, according to Haaretz, that “a small group of Georgian soldiers were able to wipe out an entire Russian military division, thanks to the Israeli training” (“Georgian minister tells Israel Radio: Thanks to Israeli training, we’re fending off Russian military,” Haaretz, 11 August 2008)
    and:
    Since 2000, Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in arms and combat training to Georgia. Weapons included guns, ammunition, shells, tactical missile systems, antiaircraft systems, automatic turrets for armored vehicles, electronic equipment and remotely piloted aircraft. These sales were authorized by the Israeli defense ministry (Arie Egozi, “War in Georgia: The Israeli connection,” Ynet, 10 August 2008).

    “So it would be interesting to know what President Saakashvili was thinking when, on Thursday night, after days of relatively low-level shelling around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali (which both South Ossetians and Georgians blamed on each other), and literally hours after he announced on state-controlled TV the cessation of hostilities, he ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s”.
    Nixon Center President, Dimitri K. Simes

    My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country. You may not like Putin, but we should be looking for ways to work with Russia instead of antagonizing a country with nuclear weapons. Anyway, I hate being lied to and talked down to. Oh yeah, and calling someone a “Hitler-lover” because you disagree with them is really weak.

  37. “My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country.”

    It was provoked — Putin provoked it.

    Also, I read your quotes about Israel. I have no idea why you posted them. What does Israel have to do with the fact that Putin is a fascist? What you probably don’t understand is that Putin has invaded or interfered with the democracies in 6 former Soviet Republics. My family comes from Ukraine. In that country, Putin ordered the KGB to poison our president because he would not go along with fascism. He is doing the same thing in Georgia. You also don’t understand that Putin is trying to reestablish the Russian empire and get rid of NATO in all the democracies where the people have chosen to reject Russian imperialism and go with NATO instead.

    You stated that McCain and Obama lied. But they did not lie. You said Georgia provoked Russia’s attack. That is false. You are ignorant, I am sorry to say. You don’t understand how Russia acts and you don’t understand what the KGB is doing behind the scenes. Because you are so ignorant, let me tell you to pay attention to Moldova. Russia is now interfering there. Pretty soon, Russia will provoke Moldova to defend itself, and then you will say it is all Moldova’s fault. You really are ignorant about how Russia acts.

  38. “My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country.”

    It was provoked — Putin provoked it.

    Also, I read your quotes about Israel. I have no idea why you posted them. What does Israel have to do with the fact that Putin is a fascist? What you probably don’t understand is that Putin has invaded or interfered with the democracies in 6 former Soviet Republics. My family comes from Ukraine. In that country, Putin ordered the KGB to poison our president because he would not go along with fascism. He is doing the same thing in Georgia. You also don’t understand that Putin is trying to reestablish the Russian empire and get rid of NATO in all the democracies where the people have chosen to reject Russian imperialism and go with NATO instead.

    You stated that McCain and Obama lied. But they did not lie. You said Georgia provoked Russia’s attack. That is false. You are ignorant, I am sorry to say. You don’t understand how Russia acts and you don’t understand what the KGB is doing behind the scenes. Because you are so ignorant, let me tell you to pay attention to Moldova. Russia is now interfering there. Pretty soon, Russia will provoke Moldova to defend itself, and then you will say it is all Moldova’s fault. You really are ignorant about how Russia acts.

  39. “My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country.”

    It was provoked — Putin provoked it.

    Also, I read your quotes about Israel. I have no idea why you posted them. What does Israel have to do with the fact that Putin is a fascist? What you probably don’t understand is that Putin has invaded or interfered with the democracies in 6 former Soviet Republics. My family comes from Ukraine. In that country, Putin ordered the KGB to poison our president because he would not go along with fascism. He is doing the same thing in Georgia. You also don’t understand that Putin is trying to reestablish the Russian empire and get rid of NATO in all the democracies where the people have chosen to reject Russian imperialism and go with NATO instead.

    You stated that McCain and Obama lied. But they did not lie. You said Georgia provoked Russia’s attack. That is false. You are ignorant, I am sorry to say. You don’t understand how Russia acts and you don’t understand what the KGB is doing behind the scenes. Because you are so ignorant, let me tell you to pay attention to Moldova. Russia is now interfering there. Pretty soon, Russia will provoke Moldova to defend itself, and then you will say it is all Moldova’s fault. You really are ignorant about how Russia acts.

  40. “My point was that it was a bald faced lie for Obama and McCain to tell the American people that Russia’s invasion was unprovoked, and does a disservice to the country.”

    It was provoked — Putin provoked it.

    Also, I read your quotes about Israel. I have no idea why you posted them. What does Israel have to do with the fact that Putin is a fascist? What you probably don’t understand is that Putin has invaded or interfered with the democracies in 6 former Soviet Republics. My family comes from Ukraine. In that country, Putin ordered the KGB to poison our president because he would not go along with fascism. He is doing the same thing in Georgia. You also don’t understand that Putin is trying to reestablish the Russian empire and get rid of NATO in all the democracies where the people have chosen to reject Russian imperialism and go with NATO instead.

    You stated that McCain and Obama lied. But they did not lie. You said Georgia provoked Russia’s attack. That is false. You are ignorant, I am sorry to say. You don’t understand how Russia acts and you don’t understand what the KGB is doing behind the scenes. Because you are so ignorant, let me tell you to pay attention to Moldova. Russia is now interfering there. Pretty soon, Russia will provoke Moldova to defend itself, and then you will say it is all Moldova’s fault. You really are ignorant about how Russia acts.

  41. Interesting how bias creeps into assessment of how a particular candidate faired in a debate. IMHO, McCain won the debate hands down, but Obama made a few very good hits.

    1) You are correct, neither one could articulate very well on the current economic crisis. Who can, except the electorate? Bush put forth a plan that would have given absolute discretion to the feds on the bailout. The Democrats added a few conditions, such as limits on executive compensation for those who took the bailout money, maybe some help for homeowners altho it was not clear just what assistance. Senate Republicans were willing to go along with this awful deal. The House Republicans said no deal, why should corporate malfeasance be rewarded? But not until after they were flooded w emails and phone calls from infuriated taxpayers. The voting public knows exactly what is needed – accountability for the CEOs of the failed companies/banks, better gov’t oversight, help for innocent homeowners who were lied to by unscrupulous lenders. Politicians are clueless bc they are too worried about getting elected and inside their political bubble and outside of the real world.
    2) Jim Lehrer refused to allow the candidates to remain civil, unlike the Rick Warren political forum, but instead egged both candidates on to put on the boxing gloves. Both candidates were perfectly willing to remain civil and above board, and Lehrer ruined a perfectly good thing. Lehrer showed himself to be what he is – a cheap newsman in search of a 60 second soundbite.
    3)McCain fought back when Obama first attacked him at the urging of Lehrer. Review the debate, and determine who was the first to “attack”. Both Obama and McCain traded barbs freely once Lehrer made it clear it was expected. In fact Obama was markedly smirking much of the time frankly, whereas McCain remained calm – looking less disconcerted – hence professorial. Interesting how the tables were turned, since Obama has been seen as the one who is professorial and McCain more impulsive.
    4) Obama clearly does not understand foreign policy. He claims we should not have gotten into the war in Iraq, then talks about attacking Pakistan, an ally of ours! He would also step up the war in Afghanistan, a very hawkish position at variance w his desire to pull out and bring the troops home! According to Obama, military intervention as an option with respect to Iran would not be taken off the table. What happened to all that talk of Obama’s about the use of diplomacy? It went out the window when he clearly showed he was not in command of the facts in various conflicts around the world. Nor did he understand the distinction between low level talks vs talks between heads of state, adn the reasons for approaching them diffently. I suspect Kissinger would have been appalled by Obama’s interpretation of quotes attributed to Kissinger by Obama.
    5) The fact of the matter is Obama was against the surge, McCain was for it at a time when it cost McCain politically, and McCain turned out to be absolutely correct. Now Obama is suggesting a surge for Afghanistan, the very STRATEGY that was effective in “winning” the war in Iraq. (Again Obama did not understand the difference between a TACTIC and STRATEGY, and there is a difference!) Have we won the war in Iraq? No. It is too early to tell, and is always subject to change. What I suspect has happened is that the terrorists saw themselves losing in Iraq w the surge, so have changed the front to Afghanistan w the help of Russian advisors, just as they have had Russian advisors to help them in Iraq. We just want to make sure the terrorists do not change the front back to the U.S. as in 9/11. The next 9/11 will have far more casualties – you can count on it.
    6) McCain did not capitalize on Obama’s statement that we have lost standing w the world. That comment of Obama’s sounds like it is coming right out of the mouth of Reverend Wright and the extreme left. Somehow our failed policies are the reason we are hated in the world is their clarion cry. In other words, Obama doesn’t even like his own country very much, just as his wife said. How sad. (Do we really want someone as president who does not even care for his own country?) Think about this – you know you have hit the enemy where it hurts when they start accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. The terrorists are beginning to be hated by everyone including the civilian population of Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East and all over the world. Hated terrorists include leaders of terrorists states such as Iran. So those same hated leaders try and turn the tables with psychological warfare, and blame the U.S. – for their own failed policies, such as in Iran. McCain gets it, Obama doesn’t bc he hasn’t had enough experience to realize this is a TACTIC of guerilla warfare/terrorism – blame the enemy, no matter how ridiculous. Obama tried to paint Georgia as the aggressor in the latest conflict, when Russia clearly stirred up factionalism to create an excuse to flex their muscles militarily. Russia wants its old power back, but its satellites are committed to democracy, despite attempts by Putin to assassinate democratic leaders of fledgling democracies surrounding it. Good for Bush to make sure Poland has a military defense shield. Defense shields are going to be needed around the world by our allies. Remember, N. Korea shot a missile towards our ally Japan.
    7) I couldn’t tell if there were distortions on both sides when they threw out numbers. Each candidate threw out numerical figures I had no way of verifying, so I didn’t find that tactic too impressive. However, Obama made one really good hit against McCain. When McCain went on about gov’t earmarks, Obama reminded McCain that the earmarks only amounted to a small amount in comparison to the cost of huge tax cuts. McCain kept babbling on about wasteful spending, couldn’t articulate where he would cut waste, and went back to the earmark issue. Not impressive at all. Obama has him on that one.
    8) However, McCain pointed out that Obama’s proposals would be far too costly, and the taxpayers could not possibly afford all of them – it would in effect break the piggy bank. Obama admitted he was going to have to pare back many of his proposals – another example of idealism that has to give way to pragmatism. It showed Obama’s naivete.
    9)If the NY Times declared there was no winner, and they have shown themselves to be a clearly partisan newspaper, then you know McCain had the edge.

    I don’t particularly care for either candidate. They are both problematic, to say the least. Obama tends to follow the party line doggedly, which is more of the same spending, spending spending. McCain is a loose cannon. You can never be sure where he is coming from. He doesn’t seem to have any basic core principles, other than he wants to get elected. Both VP candidates are awful. Biden is as crooked as a dog’s hind leg, a token old white political pol. Palin is inexperiences, and puffed up with her own self importance. Her appointment was more a political maneuver than anything. My problem is I can’t stand Nadar either. So what to do?

    We have two big issues on the table. The war on terror, which we must win. The economic meltdown, which requires more accountability and regulation. McCain has the edge when it comes to the war on terror, clearly. He will not pull defeat from the jaws of victory. We cannot afford to lose now in Iraq, whatever your views of whether we should have gone in in the first place.

    As for the economic meltdown, the House Republicans seem the only ones holding out for real accountability – a loan not a bailout for the failed companies. However, they may have only done it bc they put their collective fingers in the wind, and saw which way it was blowing. Same w the Democrats when they balked at a bailout w no conditions whatever, as Bush wanted. I would say the Republicans have a slight edge here, so again McCain is slightly ahead.

    But there is still time between now and the election, so anything could happen. My understanding is the Dems are hoping to drop an October “gotcha” bombshell right before the election. The Republicans, if they are smart, should keep on point about the two main issues and not stoop to that sort of thing. But probably the mud will fly on both sides, and the issues will get lost in all the slime. I am heartily disappointed in both parties, and the poor quality of the candidates we are getting. Yuck!

  42. Interesting how bias creeps into assessment of how a particular candidate faired in a debate. IMHO, McCain won the debate hands down, but Obama made a few very good hits.

    1) You are correct, neither one could articulate very well on the current economic crisis. Who can, except the electorate? Bush put forth a plan that would have given absolute discretion to the feds on the bailout. The Democrats added a few conditions, such as limits on executive compensation for those who took the bailout money, maybe some help for homeowners altho it was not clear just what assistance. Senate Republicans were willing to go along with this awful deal. The House Republicans said no deal, why should corporate malfeasance be rewarded? But not until after they were flooded w emails and phone calls from infuriated taxpayers. The voting public knows exactly what is needed – accountability for the CEOs of the failed companies/banks, better gov’t oversight, help for innocent homeowners who were lied to by unscrupulous lenders. Politicians are clueless bc they are too worried about getting elected and inside their political bubble and outside of the real world.
    2) Jim Lehrer refused to allow the candidates to remain civil, unlike the Rick Warren political forum, but instead egged both candidates on to put on the boxing gloves. Both candidates were perfectly willing to remain civil and above board, and Lehrer ruined a perfectly good thing. Lehrer showed himself to be what he is – a cheap newsman in search of a 60 second soundbite.
    3)McCain fought back when Obama first attacked him at the urging of Lehrer. Review the debate, and determine who was the first to “attack”. Both Obama and McCain traded barbs freely once Lehrer made it clear it was expected. In fact Obama was markedly smirking much of the time frankly, whereas McCain remained calm – looking less disconcerted – hence professorial. Interesting how the tables were turned, since Obama has been seen as the one who is professorial and McCain more impulsive.
    4) Obama clearly does not understand foreign policy. He claims we should not have gotten into the war in Iraq, then talks about attacking Pakistan, an ally of ours! He would also step up the war in Afghanistan, a very hawkish position at variance w his desire to pull out and bring the troops home! According to Obama, military intervention as an option with respect to Iran would not be taken off the table. What happened to all that talk of Obama’s about the use of diplomacy? It went out the window when he clearly showed he was not in command of the facts in various conflicts around the world. Nor did he understand the distinction between low level talks vs talks between heads of state, adn the reasons for approaching them diffently. I suspect Kissinger would have been appalled by Obama’s interpretation of quotes attributed to Kissinger by Obama.
    5) The fact of the matter is Obama was against the surge, McCain was for it at a time when it cost McCain politically, and McCain turned out to be absolutely correct. Now Obama is suggesting a surge for Afghanistan, the very STRATEGY that was effective in “winning” the war in Iraq. (Again Obama did not understand the difference between a TACTIC and STRATEGY, and there is a difference!) Have we won the war in Iraq? No. It is too early to tell, and is always subject to change. What I suspect has happened is that the terrorists saw themselves losing in Iraq w the surge, so have changed the front to Afghanistan w the help of Russian advisors, just as they have had Russian advisors to help them in Iraq. We just want to make sure the terrorists do not change the front back to the U.S. as in 9/11. The next 9/11 will have far more casualties – you can count on it.
    6) McCain did not capitalize on Obama’s statement that we have lost standing w the world. That comment of Obama’s sounds like it is coming right out of the mouth of Reverend Wright and the extreme left. Somehow our failed policies are the reason we are hated in the world is their clarion cry. In other words, Obama doesn’t even like his own country very much, just as his wife said. How sad. (Do we really want someone as president who does not even care for his own country?) Think about this – you know you have hit the enemy where it hurts when they start accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. The terrorists are beginning to be hated by everyone including the civilian population of Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East and all over the world. Hated terrorists include leaders of terrorists states such as Iran. So those same hated leaders try and turn the tables with psychological warfare, and blame the U.S. – for their own failed policies, such as in Iran. McCain gets it, Obama doesn’t bc he hasn’t had enough experience to realize this is a TACTIC of guerilla warfare/terrorism – blame the enemy, no matter how ridiculous. Obama tried to paint Georgia as the aggressor in the latest conflict, when Russia clearly stirred up factionalism to create an excuse to flex their muscles militarily. Russia wants its old power back, but its satellites are committed to democracy, despite attempts by Putin to assassinate democratic leaders of fledgling democracies surrounding it. Good for Bush to make sure Poland has a military defense shield. Defense shields are going to be needed around the world by our allies. Remember, N. Korea shot a missile towards our ally Japan.
    7) I couldn’t tell if there were distortions on both sides when they threw out numbers. Each candidate threw out numerical figures I had no way of verifying, so I didn’t find that tactic too impressive. However, Obama made one really good hit against McCain. When McCain went on about gov’t earmarks, Obama reminded McCain that the earmarks only amounted to a small amount in comparison to the cost of huge tax cuts. McCain kept babbling on about wasteful spending, couldn’t articulate where he would cut waste, and went back to the earmark issue. Not impressive at all. Obama has him on that one.
    8) However, McCain pointed out that Obama’s proposals would be far too costly, and the taxpayers could not possibly afford all of them – it would in effect break the piggy bank. Obama admitted he was going to have to pare back many of his proposals – another example of idealism that has to give way to pragmatism. It showed Obama’s naivete.
    9)If the NY Times declared there was no winner, and they have shown themselves to be a clearly partisan newspaper, then you know McCain had the edge.

    I don’t particularly care for either candidate. They are both problematic, to say the least. Obama tends to follow the party line doggedly, which is more of the same spending, spending spending. McCain is a loose cannon. You can never be sure where he is coming from. He doesn’t seem to have any basic core principles, other than he wants to get elected. Both VP candidates are awful. Biden is as crooked as a dog’s hind leg, a token old white political pol. Palin is inexperiences, and puffed up with her own self importance. Her appointment was more a political maneuver than anything. My problem is I can’t stand Nadar either. So what to do?

    We have two big issues on the table. The war on terror, which we must win. The economic meltdown, which requires more accountability and regulation. McCain has the edge when it comes to the war on terror, clearly. He will not pull defeat from the jaws of victory. We cannot afford to lose now in Iraq, whatever your views of whether we should have gone in in the first place.

    As for the economic meltdown, the House Republicans seem the only ones holding out for real accountability – a loan not a bailout for the failed companies. However, they may have only done it bc they put their collective fingers in the wind, and saw which way it was blowing. Same w the Democrats when they balked at a bailout w no conditions whatever, as Bush wanted. I would say the Republicans have a slight edge here, so again McCain is slightly ahead.

    But there is still time between now and the election, so anything could happen. My understanding is the Dems are hoping to drop an October “gotcha” bombshell right before the election. The Republicans, if they are smart, should keep on point about the two main issues and not stoop to that sort of thing. But probably the mud will fly on both sides, and the issues will get lost in all the slime. I am heartily disappointed in both parties, and the poor quality of the candidates we are getting. Yuck!

  43. Interesting how bias creeps into assessment of how a particular candidate faired in a debate. IMHO, McCain won the debate hands down, but Obama made a few very good hits.

    1) You are correct, neither one could articulate very well on the current economic crisis. Who can, except the electorate? Bush put forth a plan that would have given absolute discretion to the feds on the bailout. The Democrats added a few conditions, such as limits on executive compensation for those who took the bailout money, maybe some help for homeowners altho it was not clear just what assistance. Senate Republicans were willing to go along with this awful deal. The House Republicans said no deal, why should corporate malfeasance be rewarded? But not until after they were flooded w emails and phone calls from infuriated taxpayers. The voting public knows exactly what is needed – accountability for the CEOs of the failed companies/banks, better gov’t oversight, help for innocent homeowners who were lied to by unscrupulous lenders. Politicians are clueless bc they are too worried about getting elected and inside their political bubble and outside of the real world.
    2) Jim Lehrer refused to allow the candidates to remain civil, unlike the Rick Warren political forum, but instead egged both candidates on to put on the boxing gloves. Both candidates were perfectly willing to remain civil and above board, and Lehrer ruined a perfectly good thing. Lehrer showed himself to be what he is – a cheap newsman in search of a 60 second soundbite.
    3)McCain fought back when Obama first attacked him at the urging of Lehrer. Review the debate, and determine who was the first to “attack”. Both Obama and McCain traded barbs freely once Lehrer made it clear it was expected. In fact Obama was markedly smirking much of the time frankly, whereas McCain remained calm – looking less disconcerted – hence professorial. Interesting how the tables were turned, since Obama has been seen as the one who is professorial and McCain more impulsive.
    4) Obama clearly does not understand foreign policy. He claims we should not have gotten into the war in Iraq, then talks about attacking Pakistan, an ally of ours! He would also step up the war in Afghanistan, a very hawkish position at variance w his desire to pull out and bring the troops home! According to Obama, military intervention as an option with respect to Iran would not be taken off the table. What happened to all that talk of Obama’s about the use of diplomacy? It went out the window when he clearly showed he was not in command of the facts in various conflicts around the world. Nor did he understand the distinction between low level talks vs talks between heads of state, adn the reasons for approaching them diffently. I suspect Kissinger would have been appalled by Obama’s interpretation of quotes attributed to Kissinger by Obama.
    5) The fact of the matter is Obama was against the surge, McCain was for it at a time when it cost McCain politically, and McCain turned out to be absolutely correct. Now Obama is suggesting a surge for Afghanistan, the very STRATEGY that was effective in “winning” the war in Iraq. (Again Obama did not understand the difference between a TACTIC and STRATEGY, and there is a difference!) Have we won the war in Iraq? No. It is too early to tell, and is always subject to change. What I suspect has happened is that the terrorists saw themselves losing in Iraq w the surge, so have changed the front to Afghanistan w the help of Russian advisors, just as they have had Russian advisors to help them in Iraq. We just want to make sure the terrorists do not change the front back to the U.S. as in 9/11. The next 9/11 will have far more casualties – you can count on it.
    6) McCain did not capitalize on Obama’s statement that we have lost standing w the world. That comment of Obama’s sounds like it is coming right out of the mouth of Reverend Wright and the extreme left. Somehow our failed policies are the reason we are hated in the world is their clarion cry. In other words, Obama doesn’t even like his own country very much, just as his wife said. How sad. (Do we really want someone as president who does not even care for his own country?) Think about this – you know you have hit the enemy where it hurts when they start accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. The terrorists are beginning to be hated by everyone including the civilian population of Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East and all over the world. Hated terrorists include leaders of terrorists states such as Iran. So those same hated leaders try and turn the tables with psychological warfare, and blame the U.S. – for their own failed policies, such as in Iran. McCain gets it, Obama doesn’t bc he hasn’t had enough experience to realize this is a TACTIC of guerilla warfare/terrorism – blame the enemy, no matter how ridiculous. Obama tried to paint Georgia as the aggressor in the latest conflict, when Russia clearly stirred up factionalism to create an excuse to flex their muscles militarily. Russia wants its old power back, but its satellites are committed to democracy, despite attempts by Putin to assassinate democratic leaders of fledgling democracies surrounding it. Good for Bush to make sure Poland has a military defense shield. Defense shields are going to be needed around the world by our allies. Remember, N. Korea shot a missile towards our ally Japan.
    7) I couldn’t tell if there were distortions on both sides when they threw out numbers. Each candidate threw out numerical figures I had no way of verifying, so I didn’t find that tactic too impressive. However, Obama made one really good hit against McCain. When McCain went on about gov’t earmarks, Obama reminded McCain that the earmarks only amounted to a small amount in comparison to the cost of huge tax cuts. McCain kept babbling on about wasteful spending, couldn’t articulate where he would cut waste, and went back to the earmark issue. Not impressive at all. Obama has him on that one.
    8) However, McCain pointed out that Obama’s proposals would be far too costly, and the taxpayers could not possibly afford all of them – it would in effect break the piggy bank. Obama admitted he was going to have to pare back many of his proposals – another example of idealism that has to give way to pragmatism. It showed Obama’s naivete.
    9)If the NY Times declared there was no winner, and they have shown themselves to be a clearly partisan newspaper, then you know McCain had the edge.

    I don’t particularly care for either candidate. They are both problematic, to say the least. Obama tends to follow the party line doggedly, which is more of the same spending, spending spending. McCain is a loose cannon. You can never be sure where he is coming from. He doesn’t seem to have any basic core principles, other than he wants to get elected. Both VP candidates are awful. Biden is as crooked as a dog’s hind leg, a token old white political pol. Palin is inexperiences, and puffed up with her own self importance. Her appointment was more a political maneuver than anything. My problem is I can’t stand Nadar either. So what to do?

    We have two big issues on the table. The war on terror, which we must win. The economic meltdown, which requires more accountability and regulation. McCain has the edge when it comes to the war on terror, clearly. He will not pull defeat from the jaws of victory. We cannot afford to lose now in Iraq, whatever your views of whether we should have gone in in the first place.

    As for the economic meltdown, the House Republicans seem the only ones holding out for real accountability – a loan not a bailout for the failed companies. However, they may have only done it bc they put their collective fingers in the wind, and saw which way it was blowing. Same w the Democrats when they balked at a bailout w no conditions whatever, as Bush wanted. I would say the Republicans have a slight edge here, so again McCain is slightly ahead.

    But there is still time between now and the election, so anything could happen. My understanding is the Dems are hoping to drop an October “gotcha” bombshell right before the election. The Republicans, if they are smart, should keep on point about the two main issues and not stoop to that sort of thing. But probably the mud will fly on both sides, and the issues will get lost in all the slime. I am heartily disappointed in both parties, and the poor quality of the candidates we are getting. Yuck!

  44. Interesting how bias creeps into assessment of how a particular candidate faired in a debate. IMHO, McCain won the debate hands down, but Obama made a few very good hits.

    1) You are correct, neither one could articulate very well on the current economic crisis. Who can, except the electorate? Bush put forth a plan that would have given absolute discretion to the feds on the bailout. The Democrats added a few conditions, such as limits on executive compensation for those who took the bailout money, maybe some help for homeowners altho it was not clear just what assistance. Senate Republicans were willing to go along with this awful deal. The House Republicans said no deal, why should corporate malfeasance be rewarded? But not until after they were flooded w emails and phone calls from infuriated taxpayers. The voting public knows exactly what is needed – accountability for the CEOs of the failed companies/banks, better gov’t oversight, help for innocent homeowners who were lied to by unscrupulous lenders. Politicians are clueless bc they are too worried about getting elected and inside their political bubble and outside of the real world.
    2) Jim Lehrer refused to allow the candidates to remain civil, unlike the Rick Warren political forum, but instead egged both candidates on to put on the boxing gloves. Both candidates were perfectly willing to remain civil and above board, and Lehrer ruined a perfectly good thing. Lehrer showed himself to be what he is – a cheap newsman in search of a 60 second soundbite.
    3)McCain fought back when Obama first attacked him at the urging of Lehrer. Review the debate, and determine who was the first to “attack”. Both Obama and McCain traded barbs freely once Lehrer made it clear it was expected. In fact Obama was markedly smirking much of the time frankly, whereas McCain remained calm – looking less disconcerted – hence professorial. Interesting how the tables were turned, since Obama has been seen as the one who is professorial and McCain more impulsive.
    4) Obama clearly does not understand foreign policy. He claims we should not have gotten into the war in Iraq, then talks about attacking Pakistan, an ally of ours! He would also step up the war in Afghanistan, a very hawkish position at variance w his desire to pull out and bring the troops home! According to Obama, military intervention as an option with respect to Iran would not be taken off the table. What happened to all that talk of Obama’s about the use of diplomacy? It went out the window when he clearly showed he was not in command of the facts in various conflicts around the world. Nor did he understand the distinction between low level talks vs talks between heads of state, adn the reasons for approaching them diffently. I suspect Kissinger would have been appalled by Obama’s interpretation of quotes attributed to Kissinger by Obama.
    5) The fact of the matter is Obama was against the surge, McCain was for it at a time when it cost McCain politically, and McCain turned out to be absolutely correct. Now Obama is suggesting a surge for Afghanistan, the very STRATEGY that was effective in “winning” the war in Iraq. (Again Obama did not understand the difference between a TACTIC and STRATEGY, and there is a difference!) Have we won the war in Iraq? No. It is too early to tell, and is always subject to change. What I suspect has happened is that the terrorists saw themselves losing in Iraq w the surge, so have changed the front to Afghanistan w the help of Russian advisors, just as they have had Russian advisors to help them in Iraq. We just want to make sure the terrorists do not change the front back to the U.S. as in 9/11. The next 9/11 will have far more casualties – you can count on it.
    6) McCain did not capitalize on Obama’s statement that we have lost standing w the world. That comment of Obama’s sounds like it is coming right out of the mouth of Reverend Wright and the extreme left. Somehow our failed policies are the reason we are hated in the world is their clarion cry. In other words, Obama doesn’t even like his own country very much, just as his wife said. How sad. (Do we really want someone as president who does not even care for his own country?) Think about this – you know you have hit the enemy where it hurts when they start accusing you of what they themselves are guilty of. The terrorists are beginning to be hated by everyone including the civilian population of Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East and all over the world. Hated terrorists include leaders of terrorists states such as Iran. So those same hated leaders try and turn the tables with psychological warfare, and blame the U.S. – for their own failed policies, such as in Iran. McCain gets it, Obama doesn’t bc he hasn’t had enough experience to realize this is a TACTIC of guerilla warfare/terrorism – blame the enemy, no matter how ridiculous. Obama tried to paint Georgia as the aggressor in the latest conflict, when Russia clearly stirred up factionalism to create an excuse to flex their muscles militarily. Russia wants its old power back, but its satellites are committed to democracy, despite attempts by Putin to assassinate democratic leaders of fledgling democracies surrounding it. Good for Bush to make sure Poland has a military defense shield. Defense shields are going to be needed around the world by our allies. Remember, N. Korea shot a missile towards our ally Japan.
    7) I couldn’t tell if there were distortions on both sides when they threw out numbers. Each candidate threw out numerical figures I had no way of verifying, so I didn’t find that tactic too impressive. However, Obama made one really good hit against McCain. When McCain went on about gov’t earmarks, Obama reminded McCain that the earmarks only amounted to a small amount in comparison to the cost of huge tax cuts. McCain kept babbling on about wasteful spending, couldn’t articulate where he would cut waste, and went back to the earmark issue. Not impressive at all. Obama has him on that one.
    8) However, McCain pointed out that Obama’s proposals would be far too costly, and the taxpayers could not possibly afford all of them – it would in effect break the piggy bank. Obama admitted he was going to have to pare back many of his proposals – another example of idealism that has to give way to pragmatism. It showed Obama’s naivete.
    9)If the NY Times declared there was no winner, and they have shown themselves to be a clearly partisan newspaper, then you know McCain had the edge.

    I don’t particularly care for either candidate. They are both problematic, to say the least. Obama tends to follow the party line doggedly, which is more of the same spending, spending spending. McCain is a loose cannon. You can never be sure where he is coming from. He doesn’t seem to have any basic core principles, other than he wants to get elected. Both VP candidates are awful. Biden is as crooked as a dog’s hind leg, a token old white political pol. Palin is inexperiences, and puffed up with her own self importance. Her appointment was more a political maneuver than anything. My problem is I can’t stand Nadar either. So what to do?

    We have two big issues on the table. The war on terror, which we must win. The economic meltdown, which requires more accountability and regulation. McCain has the edge when it comes to the war on terror, clearly. He will not pull defeat from the jaws of victory. We cannot afford to lose now in Iraq, whatever your views of whether we should have gone in in the first place.

    As for the economic meltdown, the House Republicans seem the only ones holding out for real accountability – a loan not a bailout for the failed companies. However, they may have only done it bc they put their collective fingers in the wind, and saw which way it was blowing. Same w the Democrats when they balked at a bailout w no conditions whatever, as Bush wanted. I would say the Republicans have a slight edge here, so again McCain is slightly ahead.

    But there is still time between now and the election, so anything could happen. My understanding is the Dems are hoping to drop an October “gotcha” bombshell right before the election. The Republicans, if they are smart, should keep on point about the two main issues and not stoop to that sort of thing. But probably the mud will fly on both sides, and the issues will get lost in all the slime. I am heartily disappointed in both parties, and the poor quality of the candidates we are getting. Yuck!

  45. “We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.”

    Would you rather we were losing? Right now it matters not a whit whether we should have gotten involved in the war in Iraq. I even agree w you that we should not get involved militarily unless we are willing to go all out, stay the course no matter how difficult, and win. But losing is not an option in Iraq – since to lose would mean Iran/Russia would flood into the vacuum and take over the oil fields. Can you imagine what would happen to the price of gas then? $4 a gallon would seem cheap. Our economy and that of the world could possibly sink – just what the Muslim extremists want – to destroy us from within. And your blaming of America is helping them do it.

    It doesn’t matter if we didn’t find weapons of mass destruction. We made lemonade out of lemons, what any smart country/person does. We have, no matter how inadvertantly, spread democracy. Iran is a fledgling and fragile democracy, and so is Afghanistan. Some of the old Russian satellites are now democratic – and it is ticking off the Russians no end.

    Dictatorships hate democracy surrounding them. It makes them look like what they are – bad leaders who don’t care about the citizens. Those kind of leaders more often than not only want to line their own coffers at the expense of their own people. And the fact of the matter is, the more the world goes democratic, the safer we are as a nation.

  46. “We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.”

    Would you rather we were losing? Right now it matters not a whit whether we should have gotten involved in the war in Iraq. I even agree w you that we should not get involved militarily unless we are willing to go all out, stay the course no matter how difficult, and win. But losing is not an option in Iraq – since to lose would mean Iran/Russia would flood into the vacuum and take over the oil fields. Can you imagine what would happen to the price of gas then? $4 a gallon would seem cheap. Our economy and that of the world could possibly sink – just what the Muslim extremists want – to destroy us from within. And your blaming of America is helping them do it.

    It doesn’t matter if we didn’t find weapons of mass destruction. We made lemonade out of lemons, what any smart country/person does. We have, no matter how inadvertantly, spread democracy. Iran is a fledgling and fragile democracy, and so is Afghanistan. Some of the old Russian satellites are now democratic – and it is ticking off the Russians no end.

    Dictatorships hate democracy surrounding them. It makes them look like what they are – bad leaders who don’t care about the citizens. Those kind of leaders more often than not only want to line their own coffers at the expense of their own people. And the fact of the matter is, the more the world goes democratic, the safer we are as a nation.

  47. “We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.”

    Would you rather we were losing? Right now it matters not a whit whether we should have gotten involved in the war in Iraq. I even agree w you that we should not get involved militarily unless we are willing to go all out, stay the course no matter how difficult, and win. But losing is not an option in Iraq – since to lose would mean Iran/Russia would flood into the vacuum and take over the oil fields. Can you imagine what would happen to the price of gas then? $4 a gallon would seem cheap. Our economy and that of the world could possibly sink – just what the Muslim extremists want – to destroy us from within. And your blaming of America is helping them do it.

    It doesn’t matter if we didn’t find weapons of mass destruction. We made lemonade out of lemons, what any smart country/person does. We have, no matter how inadvertantly, spread democracy. Iran is a fledgling and fragile democracy, and so is Afghanistan. Some of the old Russian satellites are now democratic – and it is ticking off the Russians no end.

    Dictatorships hate democracy surrounding them. It makes them look like what they are – bad leaders who don’t care about the citizens. Those kind of leaders more often than not only want to line their own coffers at the expense of their own people. And the fact of the matter is, the more the world goes democratic, the safer we are as a nation.

  48. “We may be winning in Iraq, but nobody really knows what we are winning.”

    Would you rather we were losing? Right now it matters not a whit whether we should have gotten involved in the war in Iraq. I even agree w you that we should not get involved militarily unless we are willing to go all out, stay the course no matter how difficult, and win. But losing is not an option in Iraq – since to lose would mean Iran/Russia would flood into the vacuum and take over the oil fields. Can you imagine what would happen to the price of gas then? $4 a gallon would seem cheap. Our economy and that of the world could possibly sink – just what the Muslim extremists want – to destroy us from within. And your blaming of America is helping them do it.

    It doesn’t matter if we didn’t find weapons of mass destruction. We made lemonade out of lemons, what any smart country/person does. We have, no matter how inadvertantly, spread democracy. Iran is a fledgling and fragile democracy, and so is Afghanistan. Some of the old Russian satellites are now democratic – and it is ticking off the Russians no end.

    Dictatorships hate democracy surrounding them. It makes them look like what they are – bad leaders who don’t care about the citizens. Those kind of leaders more often than not only want to line their own coffers at the expense of their own people. And the fact of the matter is, the more the world goes democratic, the safer we are as a nation.

  49. “My impression is that he was rude and condescending in his efforts to demonstrate to the public that he was an expert and Obama was inexperienced and green. Time and time again, he lectured like a professor explaining that Obama did not understand. Time and time again, again to this partisan, it appeared less like Obama did not understand and more like Obama did not agree.

    The New York Times analysis bears this out:”

    First of all the NY times is in the tank for Obama.

    The smoking gun proof of that was when Obama wrote an op-ed in their paper and refused to print McCain’s rebuttal.

    Smoking gun.

    Secondly, McCain said Obama doesn’t get it and he explained why.

    Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.

    Obama “doesn’t get it.”

  50. “My impression is that he was rude and condescending in his efforts to demonstrate to the public that he was an expert and Obama was inexperienced and green. Time and time again, he lectured like a professor explaining that Obama did not understand. Time and time again, again to this partisan, it appeared less like Obama did not understand and more like Obama did not agree.

    The New York Times analysis bears this out:”

    First of all the NY times is in the tank for Obama.

    The smoking gun proof of that was when Obama wrote an op-ed in their paper and refused to print McCain’s rebuttal.

    Smoking gun.

    Secondly, McCain said Obama doesn’t get it and he explained why.

    Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.

    Obama “doesn’t get it.”

  51. “My impression is that he was rude and condescending in his efforts to demonstrate to the public that he was an expert and Obama was inexperienced and green. Time and time again, he lectured like a professor explaining that Obama did not understand. Time and time again, again to this partisan, it appeared less like Obama did not understand and more like Obama did not agree.

    The New York Times analysis bears this out:”

    First of all the NY times is in the tank for Obama.

    The smoking gun proof of that was when Obama wrote an op-ed in their paper and refused to print McCain’s rebuttal.

    Smoking gun.

    Secondly, McCain said Obama doesn’t get it and he explained why.

    Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.

    Obama “doesn’t get it.”

  52. “My impression is that he was rude and condescending in his efforts to demonstrate to the public that he was an expert and Obama was inexperienced and green. Time and time again, he lectured like a professor explaining that Obama did not understand. Time and time again, again to this partisan, it appeared less like Obama did not understand and more like Obama did not agree.

    The New York Times analysis bears this out:”

    First of all the NY times is in the tank for Obama.

    The smoking gun proof of that was when Obama wrote an op-ed in their paper and refused to print McCain’s rebuttal.

    Smoking gun.

    Secondly, McCain said Obama doesn’t get it and he explained why.

    Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.

    Obama “doesn’t get it.”

  53. “Would you rather we were losing?”

    “I’d rather not be there.”

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn’t have an answer.

  54. “Would you rather we were losing?”

    “I’d rather not be there.”

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn’t have an answer.

  55. “Would you rather we were losing?”

    “I’d rather not be there.”

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn’t have an answer.

  56. “Would you rather we were losing?”

    “I’d rather not be there.”

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn’t have an answer.


  57. Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.”

    That’s not exactly what Obama said.

    “Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. If the United States has al Qaeda, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.”

    That’s clearly not the same thing as attacking Pakistan.


  58. Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.”

    That’s not exactly what Obama said.

    “Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. If the United States has al Qaeda, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.”

    That’s clearly not the same thing as attacking Pakistan.


  59. Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.”

    That’s not exactly what Obama said.

    “Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. If the United States has al Qaeda, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.”

    That’s clearly not the same thing as attacking Pakistan.


  60. Obama looked stupid on foreign policy because he argued to show restraint with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, who are enemies of ours while arguing we should deal with a heavy hand Pakistan, who is our ally. Then he argues we need to focus on Afghanistan even though we need to consider military action in Pakistan, but we cannot go into Iraq because that is taking our eye off afghanistan.”

    That’s not exactly what Obama said.

    “Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. If the United States has al Qaeda, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.”

    That’s clearly not the same thing as attacking Pakistan.

  61. >"Would you rather we were losing?"

    "I'-) rather not be there."

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn't have an answer.<

    We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

  62. >"Would you rather we were losing?"

    "I'-) rather not be there."

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn't have an answer.<

    We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

  63. >"Would you rather we were losing?"

    "I'-) rather not be there."

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn't have an answer.<

    We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

  64. >"Would you rather we were losing?"

    "I'-) rather not be there."

    yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    Obama makes that point b/c he refuses to address the situation here and now because he doesn't have an answer.<

    We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

  65. We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

    how do you know? are you a military tactician?

    Iraq is harming us more now that we are winning? So leaving Iraq and letting the people get slaughtered by Al-Qaida is “the right thing to do?”

  66. We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

    how do you know? are you a military tactician?

    Iraq is harming us more now that we are winning? So leaving Iraq and letting the people get slaughtered by Al-Qaida is “the right thing to do?”

  67. We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

    how do you know? are you a military tactician?

    Iraq is harming us more now that we are winning? So leaving Iraq and letting the people get slaughtered by Al-Qaida is “the right thing to do?”

  68. We could leave there tomorrow or in six months. Trying to win in Iraq is harming us more than it helps us, imo.

    how do you know? are you a military tactician?

    Iraq is harming us more now that we are winning? So leaving Iraq and letting the people get slaughtered by Al-Qaida is “the right thing to do?”

  69. I’m opining based on my knowledge just as you are.

    What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan. That’s where the front of any battle on terrorism is. Any success in Iraq has come at a very heavy price.

  70. I’m opining based on my knowledge just as you are.

    What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan. That’s where the front of any battle on terrorism is. Any success in Iraq has come at a very heavy price.

  71. I’m opining based on my knowledge just as you are.

    What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan. That’s where the front of any battle on terrorism is. Any success in Iraq has come at a very heavy price.

  72. I’m opining based on my knowledge just as you are.

    What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan. That’s where the front of any battle on terrorism is. Any success in Iraq has come at a very heavy price.

  73. What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan.

    Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.

  74. What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan.

    Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.

  75. What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan.

    Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.

  76. What has happened as the result of our efforts in Iraq which have monopolized our attention is the Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan and the Taliban has regrouped in Afghanistan.

    Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.

  77. “Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.”

    Actually this process has been building for several years, well before the surge began, it was not a result of the surge directly, it was a result of our focus on Iraq since 2003–a huge strategic blunder which was magnified by a series of tactical errors in Iraq itself.

    “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

  78. “Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.”

    Actually this process has been building for several years, well before the surge began, it was not a result of the surge directly, it was a result of our focus on Iraq since 2003–a huge strategic blunder which was magnified by a series of tactical errors in Iraq itself.

    “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

  79. “Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.”

    Actually this process has been building for several years, well before the surge began, it was not a result of the surge directly, it was a result of our focus on Iraq since 2003–a huge strategic blunder which was magnified by a series of tactical errors in Iraq itself.

    “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

  80. “Yes because they are losing in Iraq and have decided the cost to them is not worth the reward to continue there. Props to us and the military.”

    Actually this process has been building for several years, well before the surge began, it was not a result of the surge directly, it was a result of our focus on Iraq since 2003–a huge strategic blunder which was magnified by a series of tactical errors in Iraq itself.

    “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

  81. “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

    umm, okay. I’ll repeat the question. You said we could be out of there in six months. What are you basing that figure on?

  82. “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

    umm, okay. I’ll repeat the question. You said we could be out of there in six months. What are you basing that figure on?

  83. “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

    umm, okay. I’ll repeat the question. You said we could be out of there in six months. What are you basing that figure on?

  84. “okay, then I’d like to know where that six month figure comes from.”

    The previous individual or you suggested that it was a moot point since we have long since made the decision to invade. However when I said I don’t think we should be there, I mean now, thus, it’s certainly not a moot point, we can leave any time we want.

    umm, okay. I’ll repeat the question. You said we could be out of there in six months. What are you basing that figure on?

  85. I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.

  86. I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.

  87. I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.

  88. I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.

  89. I’m suspicious of claims of wearing the mantle of fiscal conservatism. Republicans from Reagan to Bush (both of them) to McCain claim to be fiscal conservatives. When we’ve had “fiscal conservatives” in the White House, we get unbelievable deficits, and somehow that’s okay.

    Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).

    With McCain’s long record in the Senate, I don’t see what he did to prevent the current economic mess, apart from side w/ “fiscally conservative” Republicans.

    A balanced budget should be a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

  90. I’m suspicious of claims of wearing the mantle of fiscal conservatism. Republicans from Reagan to Bush (both of them) to McCain claim to be fiscal conservatives. When we’ve had “fiscal conservatives” in the White House, we get unbelievable deficits, and somehow that’s okay.

    Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).

    With McCain’s long record in the Senate, I don’t see what he did to prevent the current economic mess, apart from side w/ “fiscally conservative” Republicans.

    A balanced budget should be a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

  91. I’m suspicious of claims of wearing the mantle of fiscal conservatism. Republicans from Reagan to Bush (both of them) to McCain claim to be fiscal conservatives. When we’ve had “fiscal conservatives” in the White House, we get unbelievable deficits, and somehow that’s okay.

    Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).

    With McCain’s long record in the Senate, I don’t see what he did to prevent the current economic mess, apart from side w/ “fiscally conservative” Republicans.

    A balanced budget should be a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

  92. I’m suspicious of claims of wearing the mantle of fiscal conservatism. Republicans from Reagan to Bush (both of them) to McCain claim to be fiscal conservatives. When we’ve had “fiscal conservatives” in the White House, we get unbelievable deficits, and somehow that’s okay.

    Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).

    With McCain’s long record in the Senate, I don’t see what he did to prevent the current economic mess, apart from side w/ “fiscally conservative” Republicans.

    A balanced budget should be a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

  93. “I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.”

    I see. Okay. get it now.

    Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.

    Meanwhile, the terrorists have control of the oil in Iraq and we will be a lot safer because of it. Right?

  94. “I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.”

    I see. Okay. get it now.

    Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.

    Meanwhile, the terrorists have control of the oil in Iraq and we will be a lot safer because of it. Right?

  95. “I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.”

    I see. Okay. get it now.

    Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.

    Meanwhile, the terrorists have control of the oil in Iraq and we will be a lot safer because of it. Right?

  96. “I’ll repeat my answer:

    The original point: yeah, well until time machines are invented that is not an option, and that point is moot.

    My response: We could leave there tomorrow or in six months.

    ——————————-

    What’s the six month number based on? It’s based on my response to the point not being moot. It is an arbitrary number in response to the time machine point, not based on an assessment of the situation.”

    I see. Okay. get it now.

    Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.

    Meanwhile, the terrorists have control of the oil in Iraq and we will be a lot safer because of it. Right?

  97. Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.

  98. Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.

  99. Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.

  100. Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.

  101. “Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.”

    Have they captured Bin Laden yet?

  102. “Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.”

    Have they captured Bin Laden yet?

  103. “Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.”

    Have they captured Bin Laden yet?

  104. “Meanwhile Al Qaeda and the Taliban have regrouped in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the heart of the Al Qaeda hold.

    which is where we want em! They can do less damage concentrated in a country without oil than one where they control lots of resources.”

    Have they captured Bin Laden yet?

  105. “Have we won the war in Iraq? No.”

    Even General Petraus said that this isn’t the kind of war that you win.

    The problem with introducing the question of winning the war in Iraq is, how do you know when you’ve won?

  106. “Have we won the war in Iraq? No.”

    Even General Petraus said that this isn’t the kind of war that you win.

    The problem with introducing the question of winning the war in Iraq is, how do you know when you’ve won?

  107. “Have we won the war in Iraq? No.”

    Even General Petraus said that this isn’t the kind of war that you win.

    The problem with introducing the question of winning the war in Iraq is, how do you know when you’ve won?

  108. “Have we won the war in Iraq? No.”

    Even General Petraus said that this isn’t the kind of war that you win.

    The problem with introducing the question of winning the war in Iraq is, how do you know when you’ve won?

  109. “Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.”

    Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain. Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal. The difference is that McCain hasn’t proposed any kind of withdrawal whatsoever, and also believes we should increase our troop strength in Afghanistan.
    We don’t have the resources to maintain our current, or pre-surge, troop levels in Iraq and also send extra troops to Afghanistan. The military leaders have repeatedly told the administration that. Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

  110. “Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.”

    Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain. Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal. The difference is that McCain hasn’t proposed any kind of withdrawal whatsoever, and also believes we should increase our troop strength in Afghanistan.
    We don’t have the resources to maintain our current, or pre-surge, troop levels in Iraq and also send extra troops to Afghanistan. The military leaders have repeatedly told the administration that. Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

  111. “Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.”

    Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain. Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal. The difference is that McCain hasn’t proposed any kind of withdrawal whatsoever, and also believes we should increase our troop strength in Afghanistan.
    We don’t have the resources to maintain our current, or pre-surge, troop levels in Iraq and also send extra troops to Afghanistan. The military leaders have repeatedly told the administration that. Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

  112. “Yes, we could leave Iraq tomorrow, and tune into CNN and watch all of the Iraqi get slaughtered on National TV by alQaida taking over.

    We then will have to probably shift military forces into Kuait because that country borders Iraq and will be threatened. Unless you want us to just let that happen also.”

    Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain. Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal. The difference is that McCain hasn’t proposed any kind of withdrawal whatsoever, and also believes we should increase our troop strength in Afghanistan.
    We don’t have the resources to maintain our current, or pre-surge, troop levels in Iraq and also send extra troops to Afghanistan. The military leaders have repeatedly told the administration that. Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

  113. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain.

    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?

    Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal.

    they hell he hasn’t. Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough. Now he changes his tune. The guy is all over the friggin’ map!

    Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

    as if we can do what Obama wants? hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered? Move into Kuait to protect it, and move them into Afghanistan?

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?

  114. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain.

    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?

    Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal.

    they hell he hasn’t. Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough. Now he changes his tune. The guy is all over the friggin’ map!

    Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

    as if we can do what Obama wants? hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered? Move into Kuait to protect it, and move them into Afghanistan?

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?

  115. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain.

    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?

    Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal.

    they hell he hasn’t. Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough. Now he changes his tune. The guy is all over the friggin’ map!

    Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

    as if we can do what Obama wants? hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered? Move into Kuait to protect it, and move them into Afghanistan?

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?

  116. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is not a threat that requires 150,000 US troops to contain.

    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?

    Obama has not proposed a precipitous withdrawal.

    they hell he hasn’t. Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough. Now he changes his tune. The guy is all over the friggin’ map!

    Unless we expand our standing army and increase our defense budget significantly, we can’t implement what McCain wants to do.

    as if we can do what Obama wants? hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered? Move into Kuait to protect it, and move them into Afghanistan?

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?

  117. Is Al Qaida still a significant force in Iraq? I understood that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq. Of course I heard this on NPR rather than Fox News…

    If I’m mistaken, please enlighten me.

  118. Is Al Qaida still a significant force in Iraq? I understood that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq. Of course I heard this on NPR rather than Fox News…

    If I’m mistaken, please enlighten me.

  119. Is Al Qaida still a significant force in Iraq? I understood that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq. Of course I heard this on NPR rather than Fox News…

    If I’m mistaken, please enlighten me.

  120. Is Al Qaida still a significant force in Iraq? I understood that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq. Of course I heard this on NPR rather than Fox News…

    If I’m mistaken, please enlighten me.

  121. In 2007 AQI was estimated at anywhere from 850 (independent analyst) to over 1000 fighters. The Awakening caused about 500 of those to desert by early 2008. Total number of AQI is probably well under 1000 fighters now.
    There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.
    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?
    No, but I follow events there very closely for various personal reasons. I use independent sources of information, ranging from pro-military to anti-war, as well as more neutral observers.

    Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough.
    His goal is to do it in 16 months, which is longer than the Maliki government wants him to take.

    hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered?
    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis. Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?
    They don’t have a “war machine.” And they don’t control the oil in Iraq, nor will they. Do you imagine that Al Qaeda Iraq is going to overthrow the Maliki government?

  122. In 2007 AQI was estimated at anywhere from 850 (independent analyst) to over 1000 fighters. The Awakening caused about 500 of those to desert by early 2008. Total number of AQI is probably well under 1000 fighters now.
    There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.
    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?
    No, but I follow events there very closely for various personal reasons. I use independent sources of information, ranging from pro-military to anti-war, as well as more neutral observers.

    Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough.
    His goal is to do it in 16 months, which is longer than the Maliki government wants him to take.

    hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered?
    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis. Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?
    They don’t have a “war machine.” And they don’t control the oil in Iraq, nor will they. Do you imagine that Al Qaeda Iraq is going to overthrow the Maliki government?

  123. In 2007 AQI was estimated at anywhere from 850 (independent analyst) to over 1000 fighters. The Awakening caused about 500 of those to desert by early 2008. Total number of AQI is probably well under 1000 fighters now.
    There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.
    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?
    No, but I follow events there very closely for various personal reasons. I use independent sources of information, ranging from pro-military to anti-war, as well as more neutral observers.

    Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough.
    His goal is to do it in 16 months, which is longer than the Maliki government wants him to take.

    hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered?
    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis. Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?
    They don’t have a “war machine.” And they don’t control the oil in Iraq, nor will they. Do you imagine that Al Qaeda Iraq is going to overthrow the Maliki government?

  124. In 2007 AQI was estimated at anywhere from 850 (independent analyst) to over 1000 fighters. The Awakening caused about 500 of those to desert by early 2008. Total number of AQI is probably well under 1000 fighters now.
    There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.
    Says you. Are you a military expert? Do you know how many troops it requires to contain them?
    No, but I follow events there very closely for various personal reasons. I use independent sources of information, ranging from pro-military to anti-war, as well as more neutral observers.

    Obama has repeatedly said on Natl TV about getting out of Iraq, and how we cannot do it soon enough.
    His goal is to do it in 16 months, which is longer than the Maliki government wants him to take.

    hand the keys over to Iraq and let the people get slaughtered?
    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis. Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    In addition to all of the oil reserves that Al-Qaida will be able to use for their war machine?
    They don’t have a “war machine.” And they don’t control the oil in Iraq, nor will they. Do you imagine that Al Qaeda Iraq is going to overthrow the Maliki government?

  125. There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.

    props to us. Good triumphs over evil.

    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis.

    so what the devil are you complaining about?

    Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.

  126. There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.

    props to us. Good triumphs over evil.

    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis.

    so what the devil are you complaining about?

    Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.

  127. There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.

    props to us. Good triumphs over evil.

    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis.

    so what the devil are you complaining about?

    Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.

  128. There are a few other terrorist groups operating in Iraq, mostly in the north. Some of our troops are fighting those. Mostly we aren’t doing that work anymore.

    props to us. Good triumphs over evil.

    That is precisely what we are doing right now. We just handed Anbar province over to the Iraqis.

    so what the devil are you complaining about?

    Tomorrow we stop paying the Awakening militias. Hard to say what will result.
    Check out the ethnic cleansing of Baghdad over the last three years.

    I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.

  129. that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq.

    good. glad to hear it. NPR reports good news then. We are winning.
    props to us. God bless our troops and the USA!

    “God has already forgiven you my child, but Uncle Sam is still pissed.”

  130. that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq.

    good. glad to hear it. NPR reports good news then. We are winning.
    props to us. God bless our troops and the USA!

    “God has already forgiven you my child, but Uncle Sam is still pissed.”

  131. that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq.

    good. glad to hear it. NPR reports good news then. We are winning.
    props to us. God bless our troops and the USA!

    “God has already forgiven you my child, but Uncle Sam is still pissed.”

  132. that the recent operations had decimated Al Qaida in Iraq.

    good. glad to hear it. NPR reports good news then. We are winning.
    props to us. God bless our troops and the USA!

    “God has already forgiven you my child, but Uncle Sam is still pissed.”

  133. “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

  134. “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

  135. “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

  136. “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

  137. Re: the ethnic changes in Baghdad:
    “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

  138. Re: the ethnic changes in Baghdad:
    “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

  139. Re: the ethnic changes in Baghdad:
    “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

  140. Re: the ethnic changes in Baghdad:
    “I suppose that is our fault right? Americas fault first, as always. I just do love patriotic lefties.”

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

  141. don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

    I’m glad we can have this discussion. perhaps these phrases sound familiar:

    “we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world”

    note the word “we” meaning America, not President Bush.

    also note the assumption we are disrespected by the rest of the world without proof.

    also note the implication that our being disrespected by “the rest of the world” (whoever that is) is our
    fault, not anyone elses, i.e. France, Russia who have their own nefarious purposes.

    how about this:

    “we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators”

    note the use of the word “we” meaning “America” not “President Bush”

    I hear attacks on America all the time. We did this, we did that. Everyone hates “us.”

  142. don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

    I’m glad we can have this discussion. perhaps these phrases sound familiar:

    “we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world”

    note the word “we” meaning America, not President Bush.

    also note the assumption we are disrespected by the rest of the world without proof.

    also note the implication that our being disrespected by “the rest of the world” (whoever that is) is our
    fault, not anyone elses, i.e. France, Russia who have their own nefarious purposes.

    how about this:

    “we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators”

    note the use of the word “we” meaning “America” not “President Bush”

    I hear attacks on America all the time. We did this, we did that. Everyone hates “us.”

  143. don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

    I’m glad we can have this discussion. perhaps these phrases sound familiar:

    “we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world”

    note the word “we” meaning America, not President Bush.

    also note the assumption we are disrespected by the rest of the world without proof.

    also note the implication that our being disrespected by “the rest of the world” (whoever that is) is our
    fault, not anyone elses, i.e. France, Russia who have their own nefarious purposes.

    how about this:

    “we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators”

    note the use of the word “we” meaning “America” not “President Bush”

    I hear attacks on America all the time. We did this, we did that. Everyone hates “us.”

  144. don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.

    I’m glad we can have this discussion. perhaps these phrases sound familiar:

    “we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world”

    note the word “we” meaning America, not President Bush.

    also note the assumption we are disrespected by the rest of the world without proof.

    also note the implication that our being disrespected by “the rest of the world” (whoever that is) is our
    fault, not anyone elses, i.e. France, Russia who have their own nefarious purposes.

    how about this:

    “we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators”

    note the use of the word “we” meaning “America” not “President Bush”

    I hear attacks on America all the time. We did this, we did that. Everyone hates “us.”

  145. It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.

  146. It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.

  147. It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.

  148. It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.

  149. Neither of your examples point out liberals in this country faulting America, both of them point out the impact of Bush's policies on the world's view of America.

    >"we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world"

    note the word "we" meaning America, not President Bush.<

    I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree's with American policy, I'm not sure that's the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?

    I don't see that as a blame America, I think it's a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America's policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.

    Your second example follows the same line of thinking.

    "we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators"

    In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true. US troops were treated as conquerers by many and there was rebellion against the US role in Iraq. Again, I see this blame America, I see this as a criticism of Bush policy which is embodied in Iraq by a stark miscalculation of the reaction to US invasion and US establishing a new government.

    In my opinion, your examples are not showing liberals blaming America, but rather, criticizing the Bush administration for missteps that they have taken in the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

  150. Neither of your examples point out liberals in this country faulting America, both of them point out the impact of Bush's policies on the world's view of America.

    >"we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world"

    note the word "we" meaning America, not President Bush.<

    I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree's with American policy, I'm not sure that's the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?

    I don't see that as a blame America, I think it's a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America's policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.

    Your second example follows the same line of thinking.

    "we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators"

    In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true. US troops were treated as conquerers by many and there was rebellion against the US role in Iraq. Again, I see this blame America, I see this as a criticism of Bush policy which is embodied in Iraq by a stark miscalculation of the reaction to US invasion and US establishing a new government.

    In my opinion, your examples are not showing liberals blaming America, but rather, criticizing the Bush administration for missteps that they have taken in the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

  151. Neither of your examples point out liberals in this country faulting America, both of them point out the impact of Bush's policies on the world's view of America.

    >"we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world"

    note the word "we" meaning America, not President Bush.<

    I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree's with American policy, I'm not sure that's the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?

    I don't see that as a blame America, I think it's a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America's policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.

    Your second example follows the same line of thinking.

    "we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators"

    In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true. US troops were treated as conquerers by many and there was rebellion against the US role in Iraq. Again, I see this blame America, I see this as a criticism of Bush policy which is embodied in Iraq by a stark miscalculation of the reaction to US invasion and US establishing a new government.

    In my opinion, your examples are not showing liberals blaming America, but rather, criticizing the Bush administration for missteps that they have taken in the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

  152. Neither of your examples point out liberals in this country faulting America, both of them point out the impact of Bush's policies on the world's view of America.

    >"we continue to be disrespected by the rest of the world"

    note the word "we" meaning America, not President Bush.<

    I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree's with American policy, I'm not sure that's the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?

    I don't see that as a blame America, I think it's a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America's policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.

    Your second example follows the same line of thinking.

    "we were greeted as conquerors, not liberators"

    In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true. US troops were treated as conquerers by many and there was rebellion against the US role in Iraq. Again, I see this blame America, I see this as a criticism of Bush policy which is embodied in Iraq by a stark miscalculation of the reaction to US invasion and US establishing a new government.

    In my opinion, your examples are not showing liberals blaming America, but rather, criticizing the Bush administration for missteps that they have taken in the war in Iraq and the war on terror.

  153. “Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).”

    How is it that Clinton gave us a balanced budget w a surplus, but as soon as Bush took office, and I mean within the first month according to the Dems, suddenly we had a huge deficit? I don’t think so! Furthermore, 9/11 and its devastating financial repercussions did not happen during the Clinton administration – perhaps because of it(gutted our military, built communication wall between FBI and CIA), but not during. Bush had to deal with the financial aftermath of 9/11. Who approved adjustable rate mortgages, and encouraged them? Greenspan on Clinton’s watch. That’s who!

  154. “Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).”

    How is it that Clinton gave us a balanced budget w a surplus, but as soon as Bush took office, and I mean within the first month according to the Dems, suddenly we had a huge deficit? I don’t think so! Furthermore, 9/11 and its devastating financial repercussions did not happen during the Clinton administration – perhaps because of it(gutted our military, built communication wall between FBI and CIA), but not during. Bush had to deal with the financial aftermath of 9/11. Who approved adjustable rate mortgages, and encouraged them? Greenspan on Clinton’s watch. That’s who!

  155. “Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).”

    How is it that Clinton gave us a balanced budget w a surplus, but as soon as Bush took office, and I mean within the first month according to the Dems, suddenly we had a huge deficit? I don’t think so! Furthermore, 9/11 and its devastating financial repercussions did not happen during the Clinton administration – perhaps because of it(gutted our military, built communication wall between FBI and CIA), but not during. Bush had to deal with the financial aftermath of 9/11. Who approved adjustable rate mortgages, and encouraged them? Greenspan on Clinton’s watch. That’s who!

  156. “Clinton balanced the budget and gave us a surplus (which got squandered).”

    How is it that Clinton gave us a balanced budget w a surplus, but as soon as Bush took office, and I mean within the first month according to the Dems, suddenly we had a huge deficit? I don’t think so! Furthermore, 9/11 and its devastating financial repercussions did not happen during the Clinton administration – perhaps because of it(gutted our military, built communication wall between FBI and CIA), but not during. Bush had to deal with the financial aftermath of 9/11. Who approved adjustable rate mortgages, and encouraged them? Greenspan on Clinton’s watch. That’s who!

  157. “I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.”

    Obama constantly refers to how unliked we are around the world, which by implication (if taken in context) means we as a nation are somehow at fault for that – bc we didn’t use diplomacy in Iraq as he wuold have. We tried diplomacy, for 12 years in Iraq, and it didn’t work!

  158. “I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.”

    Obama constantly refers to how unliked we are around the world, which by implication (if taken in context) means we as a nation are somehow at fault for that – bc we didn’t use diplomacy in Iraq as he wuold have. We tried diplomacy, for 12 years in Iraq, and it didn’t work!

  159. “I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.”

    Obama constantly refers to how unliked we are around the world, which by implication (if taken in context) means we as a nation are somehow at fault for that – bc we didn’t use diplomacy in Iraq as he wuold have. We tried diplomacy, for 12 years in Iraq, and it didn’t work!

  160. “I don’t see many people faulting America, maybe the administration’s policies, but not America. I don’t see this as an issue of fault, I see it as an issue of the proper policy.”

    Obama constantly refers to how unliked we are around the world, which by implication (if taken in context) means we as a nation are somehow at fault for that – bc we didn’t use diplomacy in Iraq as he wuold have. We tried diplomacy, for 12 years in Iraq, and it didn’t work!

  161. “Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.
    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.”

    Many others, including me, agree with you. We just aren’t as noisy as the opposition. Talk is cheap.

  162. “Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.
    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.”

    Many others, including me, agree with you. We just aren’t as noisy as the opposition. Talk is cheap.

  163. “Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.
    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.”

    Many others, including me, agree with you. We just aren’t as noisy as the opposition. Talk is cheap.

  164. “Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.
    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.”

    Many others, including me, agree with you. We just aren’t as noisy as the opposition. Talk is cheap.

  165. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world.”

    Gee, then I guess you disagree w Obama, who definitely has stated he believes we are disrespected in the world.

  166. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world.”

    Gee, then I guess you disagree w Obama, who definitely has stated he believes we are disrespected in the world.

  167. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world.”

    Gee, then I guess you disagree w Obama, who definitely has stated he believes we are disrespected in the world.

  168. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world.”

    Gee, then I guess you disagree w Obama, who definitely has stated he believes we are disrespected in the world.

  169. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree’s with American policy, I’m not sure that’s the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?”

    Yes, our enemies dislike us. So why do the Dems seem to think that is a bad thing? If our enemies dislike us, we know we are on the right track!

  170. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree’s with American policy, I’m not sure that’s the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?”

    Yes, our enemies dislike us. So why do the Dems seem to think that is a bad thing? If our enemies dislike us, we know we are on the right track!

  171. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree’s with American policy, I’m not sure that’s the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?”

    Yes, our enemies dislike us. So why do the Dems seem to think that is a bad thing? If our enemies dislike us, we know we are on the right track!

  172. “I would actually argue that we are not disrespected by the rest of the world. I think the rest of the world disagree’s with American policy, I’m not sure that’s the same thing as disrespect. There is also a dislike that runs through as well. Neither of these really subject to dispute are they?”

    Yes, our enemies dislike us. So why do the Dems seem to think that is a bad thing? If our enemies dislike us, we know we are on the right track!

  173. “To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America’s policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.”

    Yes, much easier to blame others than look in the mirror!

  174. “To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America’s policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.”

    Yes, much easier to blame others than look in the mirror!

  175. “To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America’s policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.”

    Yes, much easier to blame others than look in the mirror!

  176. “To put it this way, most liberals see themselves in opposition to those policies and do not equate those policies with America’s policies, but rather the Bush administration policies.”

    Yes, much easier to blame others than look in the mirror!

  177. “US troops were treated as conquerers by many”

    You mean by the NY Times? I suspect the Iraqi civilians who got a chance to vote for the first time didn’t think we were conquerors. Al Quaeda sympathizers maybe saw it that way…

  178. “US troops were treated as conquerers by many”

    You mean by the NY Times? I suspect the Iraqi civilians who got a chance to vote for the first time didn’t think we were conquerors. Al Quaeda sympathizers maybe saw it that way…

  179. “US troops were treated as conquerers by many”

    You mean by the NY Times? I suspect the Iraqi civilians who got a chance to vote for the first time didn’t think we were conquerors. Al Quaeda sympathizers maybe saw it that way…

  180. “US troops were treated as conquerers by many”

    You mean by the NY Times? I suspect the Iraqi civilians who got a chance to vote for the first time didn’t think we were conquerors. Al Quaeda sympathizers maybe saw it that way…

  181. Freedom Brigades said…

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.
    —–
    Our military is doing a fine job. Some things are going pretty well there now. Some things aren’t going well, and the situation in many parts of the country is not stable, nor is it likely ever to be.

    Over the last few years I’ve become allergic to simplistic analysis by folks on the far left and far right about Iraq. I wasn’t willing to vote for any of the Democratic candidates who were calling for immediate withdrawal (Kucinich, Richardson, Edwards). I’m not willing to vote for any Republican candidate who was calling for a longterm presence – which was all of them (except Ron Paul).

    When my daughter returns to Iraq in February for her third tour of duty, I want it to be in the furtherance of a continued hand-over to the Iraqis of responsibility for their own security. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals. We didn’t go there to ‘give them a constitution,’ and there has been very little progress toward resolving the political issues that would bring about order.

    We have done about as much as we can do in suppressing terrorists there, and in mediating their civil war. We need the troops elsewhere, and cannot sustain the open-ended commitment McCain has advocated. Even the Bush administration has accepted the phased withdrawal of combat troops, at the insistence of the Maliki government.

    I don’t fault America. I don’t fault the military. I am a proud military dad who supports Obama.
    I do fault the Bush administration:
    –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

  182. Freedom Brigades said…

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.
    —–
    Our military is doing a fine job. Some things are going pretty well there now. Some things aren’t going well, and the situation in many parts of the country is not stable, nor is it likely ever to be.

    Over the last few years I’ve become allergic to simplistic analysis by folks on the far left and far right about Iraq. I wasn’t willing to vote for any of the Democratic candidates who were calling for immediate withdrawal (Kucinich, Richardson, Edwards). I’m not willing to vote for any Republican candidate who was calling for a longterm presence – which was all of them (except Ron Paul).

    When my daughter returns to Iraq in February for her third tour of duty, I want it to be in the furtherance of a continued hand-over to the Iraqis of responsibility for their own security. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals. We didn’t go there to ‘give them a constitution,’ and there has been very little progress toward resolving the political issues that would bring about order.

    We have done about as much as we can do in suppressing terrorists there, and in mediating their civil war. We need the troops elsewhere, and cannot sustain the open-ended commitment McCain has advocated. Even the Bush administration has accepted the phased withdrawal of combat troops, at the insistence of the Maliki government.

    I don’t fault America. I don’t fault the military. I am a proud military dad who supports Obama.
    I do fault the Bush administration:
    –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

  183. Freedom Brigades said…

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.
    —–
    Our military is doing a fine job. Some things are going pretty well there now. Some things aren’t going well, and the situation in many parts of the country is not stable, nor is it likely ever to be.

    Over the last few years I’ve become allergic to simplistic analysis by folks on the far left and far right about Iraq. I wasn’t willing to vote for any of the Democratic candidates who were calling for immediate withdrawal (Kucinich, Richardson, Edwards). I’m not willing to vote for any Republican candidate who was calling for a longterm presence – which was all of them (except Ron Paul).

    When my daughter returns to Iraq in February for her third tour of duty, I want it to be in the furtherance of a continued hand-over to the Iraqis of responsibility for their own security. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals. We didn’t go there to ‘give them a constitution,’ and there has been very little progress toward resolving the political issues that would bring about order.

    We have done about as much as we can do in suppressing terrorists there, and in mediating their civil war. We need the troops elsewhere, and cannot sustain the open-ended commitment McCain has advocated. Even the Bush administration has accepted the phased withdrawal of combat troops, at the insistence of the Maliki government.

    I don’t fault America. I don’t fault the military. I am a proud military dad who supports Obama.
    I do fault the Bush administration:
    –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

  184. Freedom Brigades said…

    It is a direct result of our policies, and we have been an occupying power in Iraq since 2003. Interpret it as you like. I don’t think most people on this blog would consider me a “leftie”.

    you proved my point further. America’s fault.

    We are liberators. Why? We toppled their dictator and gave them a constitution, and the right to vote, a privilege they didn’t get under Saddam.
    Your claim we are “occupiers” is drowned out by the image of purple fingers in the air. Our military did the right thing in Iraq, and they ought to be damn proud of themselves for giving hope to people, even if I am going to be one of few on this blog to recognize their accomplishments.

    While you belittle their accomplishments they are giving freedom to others as we speak. God Bless them.
    —–
    Our military is doing a fine job. Some things are going pretty well there now. Some things aren’t going well, and the situation in many parts of the country is not stable, nor is it likely ever to be.

    Over the last few years I’ve become allergic to simplistic analysis by folks on the far left and far right about Iraq. I wasn’t willing to vote for any of the Democratic candidates who were calling for immediate withdrawal (Kucinich, Richardson, Edwards). I’m not willing to vote for any Republican candidate who was calling for a longterm presence – which was all of them (except Ron Paul).

    When my daughter returns to Iraq in February for her third tour of duty, I want it to be in the furtherance of a continued hand-over to the Iraqis of responsibility for their own security. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals. We didn’t go there to ‘give them a constitution,’ and there has been very little progress toward resolving the political issues that would bring about order.

    We have done about as much as we can do in suppressing terrorists there, and in mediating their civil war. We need the troops elsewhere, and cannot sustain the open-ended commitment McCain has advocated. Even the Bush administration has accepted the phased withdrawal of combat troops, at the insistence of the Maliki government.

    I don’t fault America. I don’t fault the military. I am a proud military dad who supports Obama.
    I do fault the Bush administration:
    –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

  185. “In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true.

    wrong. It is true, and the videofootage of the Saddam statue coming down and people celebrating speaks louder than you do.

    the proud purple fingers and 60 + percent voter turnout in two elections shatters that as well.

    US Military I salute you. Do not let ANYONE try to take away from you for all that you have achieved. You are bringing peace to that region, even if you have to drag the naysayers kicking and screaming.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

  186. “In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true.

    wrong. It is true, and the videofootage of the Saddam statue coming down and people celebrating speaks louder than you do.

    the proud purple fingers and 60 + percent voter turnout in two elections shatters that as well.

    US Military I salute you. Do not let ANYONE try to take away from you for all that you have achieved. You are bringing peace to that region, even if you have to drag the naysayers kicking and screaming.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

  187. “In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true.

    wrong. It is true, and the videofootage of the Saddam statue coming down and people celebrating speaks louder than you do.

    the proud purple fingers and 60 + percent voter turnout in two elections shatters that as well.

    US Military I salute you. Do not let ANYONE try to take away from you for all that you have achieved. You are bringing peace to that region, even if you have to drag the naysayers kicking and screaming.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

  188. “In this case, the original context was the suggestion by Bush administration officials that the US would be welcomed as liberators. That was not true.

    wrong. It is true, and the videofootage of the Saddam statue coming down and people celebrating speaks louder than you do.

    the proud purple fingers and 60 + percent voter turnout in two elections shatters that as well.

    US Military I salute you. Do not let ANYONE try to take away from you for all that you have achieved. You are bringing peace to that region, even if you have to drag the naysayers kicking and screaming.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

  189. I think it’s a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    just what is “world opinion?”

    what the NY times says “everyone else” thinks of us?

    what public opinion polls claim?

    what is this world opinion?

  190. I think it’s a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    just what is “world opinion?”

    what the NY times says “everyone else” thinks of us?

    what public opinion polls claim?

    what is this world opinion?

  191. I think it’s a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    just what is “world opinion?”

    what the NY times says “everyone else” thinks of us?

    what public opinion polls claim?

    what is this world opinion?

  192. I think it’s a criticism of the Bush Administration and the impact of their policies on world opinion.

    just what is “world opinion?”

    what the NY times says “everyone else” thinks of us?

    what public opinion polls claim?

    what is this world opinion?

  193. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

    US military is still in Japan and Germany.

    these things will take time, and history cannot be rushed.

  194. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

    US military is still in Japan and Germany.

    these things will take time, and history cannot be rushed.

  195. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

    US military is still in Japan and Germany.

    these things will take time, and history cannot be rushed.

  196. Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

    US military is still in Japan and Germany.

    these things will take time, and history cannot be rushed.

  197. –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

    umm, okay, you can repeat the democratic talking points.

    let’s talk specifics.

    “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

  198. –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

    umm, okay, you can repeat the democratic talking points.

    let’s talk specifics.

    “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

  199. –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

    umm, okay, you can repeat the democratic talking points.

    let’s talk specifics.

    “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

  200. –for mismanagement of a war that was unnecessary,
    –for lying to us about it,
    –for failing to provide appropriate protective gear to our soldiers,
    –and for turning a blind eye to the humanitarian and refugee crisis that has been created.

    umm, okay, you can repeat the democratic talking points.

    let’s talk specifics.

    “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

  201. Still in Japan, Germany said…

    (quoting me) “Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.”

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

  202. Still in Japan, Germany said…

    (quoting me) “Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.”

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

  203. Still in Japan, Germany said…

    (quoting me) “Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.”

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

  204. Still in Japan, Germany said…

    (quoting me) “Not to continue an open-ended occupation with ambiguous goals.”

    which were the same open ended occupations with ambitious goals in Japan and Germany, and the former CSA.

  205. “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

    In the run-up to the war, Bush administration officials described Saddam Hussein as an urgent, growing, significant, growing, imminent threat to the United States.
    Top officials made repeated claims that he possessed WMD’s, was developing a nuclear program, and was linked to the 9/11 terrorists.
    They repeatedly claimed that we had actually found WMD’s, mobile biological labs,
    Not one of those assessments or statements was true. Evidence was fabricated (among other things, a false letter was written and planted by the CIA to link Hussein to terrorists), evidence known to be false was included in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN and in Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address.

  206. “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

    In the run-up to the war, Bush administration officials described Saddam Hussein as an urgent, growing, significant, growing, imminent threat to the United States.
    Top officials made repeated claims that he possessed WMD’s, was developing a nuclear program, and was linked to the 9/11 terrorists.
    They repeatedly claimed that we had actually found WMD’s, mobile biological labs,
    Not one of those assessments or statements was true. Evidence was fabricated (among other things, a false letter was written and planted by the CIA to link Hussein to terrorists), evidence known to be false was included in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN and in Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address.

  207. “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

    In the run-up to the war, Bush administration officials described Saddam Hussein as an urgent, growing, significant, growing, imminent threat to the United States.
    Top officials made repeated claims that he possessed WMD’s, was developing a nuclear program, and was linked to the 9/11 terrorists.
    They repeatedly claimed that we had actually found WMD’s, mobile biological labs,
    Not one of those assessments or statements was true. Evidence was fabricated (among other things, a false letter was written and planted by the CIA to link Hussein to terrorists), evidence known to be false was included in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN and in Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address.

  208. “–for lying to us about it”

    umm, Bill Clinton made the same identical case about Iraq in 1998, just 2 years before Bush even took office.

    So how could Bush have just made it up?

    In the run-up to the war, Bush administration officials described Saddam Hussein as an urgent, growing, significant, growing, imminent threat to the United States.
    Top officials made repeated claims that he possessed WMD’s, was developing a nuclear program, and was linked to the 9/11 terrorists.
    They repeatedly claimed that we had actually found WMD’s, mobile biological labs,
    Not one of those assessments or statements was true. Evidence was fabricated (among other things, a false letter was written and planted by the CIA to link Hussein to terrorists), evidence known to be false was included in Colin Powell’s speech to the UN and in Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address.

  209. I meant to add: I think our goals in Germany and Japan were quite unambiguous.

    umm, the goal was to defeat the German/Japanese govt. topple it, and then set up a democracy.

    that is the exact same goal as the one in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  210. I meant to add: I think our goals in Germany and Japan were quite unambiguous.

    umm, the goal was to defeat the German/Japanese govt. topple it, and then set up a democracy.

    that is the exact same goal as the one in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  211. I meant to add: I think our goals in Germany and Japan were quite unambiguous.

    umm, the goal was to defeat the German/Japanese govt. topple it, and then set up a democracy.

    that is the exact same goal as the one in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  212. I meant to add: I think our goals in Germany and Japan were quite unambiguous.

    umm, the goal was to defeat the German/Japanese govt. topple it, and then set up a democracy.

    that is the exact same goal as the one in Afghanistan and Iraq.

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