If there has ever been a project fraught with more misunderstanding and misperceptions than the DHS football stadium, I am simply unaware of it.
A few weeks ago the school district approved a funding stream for the district to borrow against. For the one billionth time, the way education funding works, this money can only be used for facilities never for the classroom. There is no way possible for the district to do anything with this money other than what it chose to do–use it on facilities.
In addition, the Blue and White Foundation gave the school district a $100,000 check, the first of many as they hope to raise $1.5 million towards the construction project.
They are also looking for donors interested in naming rights to the stadium and they are looking for corporate sponsorship for the new scoreboard.
I say all of this to suggest that the district has probably gotten the best possible deal it could get out of this.
I understand completely that there are those in this community that will always criticize this decision. I invite them once again to read the reports from last June on the state of the stadium and what needs replacement and the listen to the students who use the facility–a broad range of students from football players, track and field athletes, the average student for physical education, people who utilize the stands, etc. The district had very little choice but to renovate the stadium.
Once they decided to do that they simply opted for cost effectiveness. Doing the stadium and track, required taking out part of the bank of lights, so they are putting in new lights. They are also going to a multiuse scoreboard and believe that the tag for the scoreboard will be picked up by a sponsor, so they have included that in the project.
For those who question building a stadium during thse times, the financing scheme just makes sense in terms of interest rates. The money cannot, against, cannot be used for the classroom, so it is irrelevant that we are having to make other cuts right now. This money is not available for anything other than facilities. For whatever reason, this is a point that needs to be made fifty times and I promise you someone will still post a comment questioning it.
I also understand there are those who have complained about prioritizing a stadium over the upgrades to Emerson. Once again, read the report. When the district originally considered closing Emerson it did not have the report on the facilities. There was some concern at that time, the repairs would need to be made immediately. That is the only reason that the district discussed this issue last spring. But they did not have a full report at that time. It was a small part of the school closure discussion. It was never presented as a primary reason why Emerson needed to close.
The district decided not to close Emerson primarily because of logistical problems and the haste with which it would have to perform the closure. They opted for other means to reduce the deficit and then got bailed out.
The key point for this discussion however is once again, Emerson’s repairs are not immediate safety issues. They mainly have to do with updating their code compliance to current standards.
The district believed there were greater safety issues and greater liability faced with the high school stadium issue than Emerson Junior High and thus opted to prioritize the stadium.
I think much of the criticism of the stadium stems for a combination of shear misunderstanding for how school funding works with regards to facilities versus classroom money and also a general frustration over the state of education that is forcing cuts across the state. There is unfortunately little we can do about the latter. However, if you are still unsure about the funding issues, I invite you to call the school district and get walked through it by CBO, Bruce Colby.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
Once again- thank you for shedding light in a murky corner that few are either patient enough, or clever enough to delve. I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment and applaud the district on doing this right.
Corporations are not real persons. They were given personhood after the Civil War using the 14th Amendment that gave rights to freed African -American slaves. Why invite a non-person to have naming rights of the score board? Aren’t we all subjected to corporate influence, lobbying, and signs and logos everywhere…enough already! Yes, money is tight, but the corporate person is everywhere in our lives already, influencing politics, culture, the economy, the media and, yes, education. ….t is a pernicious influence in all our lives.
It doesn’t have to be. The Vanguard I believe is a corporation, perhaps it could be the sponsor and get naming rights for the scoreboard.
Thanks for clearing all that up in such an “easy to understand” way, David. Unfortunately, I think there are still a lot of people out there who believe the school district in “choosing” a stadium over teachers and teacher’s salaries. They haven’t grasped the fact that it is absolutely against the law for this money to be used for anything other than its originally intended purpose. Just keep hammering away. They’ll get it eventually.
Yes it is clear theses are facilities’ monies, not operations but what isn’t clear is whether ALL of it should go to the stadium and why it needs to be so lavish. Aren’t there other facility priorities which need funding?
Basically they are only going to do this once in the next 30 years, so they are going to create a nice facility and in the long run that will save money. Plus they are going to raise a lot of this privately.
[quote]For those who question building a stadium during thse times, the financing scheme just makes sense in terms of interest rates. The money cannot, against, cannot be used for the classroom, so it is irrelevant that we are having to make other cuts right now. This money is not available for anything other than facilities. For whatever reason, this is a point that needs to be made fifty times and I promise you someone will still post a comment questioning it.
[/quote]
I have seen this sentiment repeated over and over to dissuade opponents. I think you miss the point and many use ridicule and condescension which is counter productive. I know that the school district cannot spend facility money on salaries, but the money does all come from the district taxpayers and donors. If the money is committed to the stadium without convincing the district that it is a wise decision, there is apt to be a backlash in future elections and fund raising. I tend to favor investing in the stadium, but wince every time I see postings similar to the above.
No matter how many times you reiterate YOUR rationale on why YOU think DJUSD should waste tax dollars on a new stadium, some of us taxpayers will NEVER agree with YOUR position. In my opinion, DJUSD has its priorities wrong in these tough economic times – and I fully understand the difference between facilities money and operating funds in the school budgeting process.
Just bc you feel strongly about YOUR position, does not make YOU right, and everyone else who thinks differently wrong!
Spending on a stadium now, means less money to spend on other facilities that may need emergency repairs. And making the decision to build a hotsy totsy stadium feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have to pay the bill when the economy is taking a nose dive!
I’m sorry David, I just think the money would be better spent on things like teachers, students, services etc. why are we spnding all this money and effort (profit or not) on a new stadium when we should be spending it on education. The school is so dedicated to putting all this time and money into this project. it’s a severe screwed up set of priorities
David Greenwald “reports”:
“In addition, the Blue and White Foundation gave the school district a $100,000 check, the first of many as they hope to raise $1.5 million towards the construction project.They are also looking for donors interested in naming rights to the stadium and they are looking for corporate sponsorship for the new scoreboard.”
Why doesn’t the Blue and White Foundation put that money towards education, paying to retain and recruit top quality teachers? The Blue and White Foundation’s money isn’t, to judge by Greenwald’s blog piece constrained as to how it is spent. No bureaucrats looking over the Blue and White Foundation’s shoulder as it raises money for a facility that’ll be used a few times a year, sit idle mostly and look good in newspaper and magazine photos.
C’mon Greenwald, put your investigative eye on the Blue and White Foundation, see where its money is coming from and why it is getting away, in its fund-raising efforts, with ignoring education, which is the top-priority mission of any school district, not just the one in the People’s Republic of Davis.
“Why doesn’t the Blue and White Foundation put that money towards education, paying to retain and recruit top quality teachers?”
Because it’s their money, and they have the right to decide what they want to spend it on. If you disagree, there is the Davis Schools Foundation that does primarily spend money on staffing (teachers).
I suppose it’s the same reason there’s more than one political party and more than one religion.
As an Alumni of Davis High, I was appalled when I returned to Davis 5 years ago to notice that while many aspects of the High School had changed, the stadium, track and field had not. Not once in over 40 years! For a facility that is used as often as this one (At least 6 days a week and on average 10 hours a day on the weekdays), I’m suprised the bleachers haven’t collapsed! It is an EMBARASSMENT! Not to mention a safety hazard. I applaud the Blue and White Foundation for championing this effort for the last 7 years. I hope they are succesful in their efforts!
The stadium that we build will serve us well. It will not threaten to strike if we
don’t increase its funding. It will not take the summer off. It will not demand health
and retirement benefits that we cannot afford.
Go stadium!
In all fairness to David Greenwald, this is HIS blog. He has every right to argue for his beliefs and positions. Importantly though, he backs up his opinions with facts. I don’t agree with many of his current positions, particularly about his continual call for the DJUSD teachers to take a pay cut (I believe he has it wrong on this one), but I respect the fact that David takes the time to research and write his positions, as well as the fact that he is always respectful and cordial to those who disagree with him.
I’m going to be meeting with some from the Blue and White Foundation, I think they will be writing something and I will try to have them address some of these issues, particularly Brian’s.
I was skeptical of doing the stadium prior to Emerson at first, but once I read all of the information and learned the facts, it became clear at least to me this was the right thing to do. For me it comes down to a safety issue, which one is more pressing from that standpoint and it’s not even close.
I did want to address one comment here:
“Spending on a stadium now, means less money to spend on other facilities that may need emergency repairs.”
The district always has the ability to make emergency repairs. So that’s not really an issue. There is an emergency facility fund set aside for exactly that reason.
It will also will not preclude doing Emerson once the funding for this is paid off.
If you or your children never participated in HS sports or performing arts activities, then it is likely that any spending that a college or high school puts toward something like a stadium or an auditorium will seem like a big waste of money.
But sports and performing arts are the main means by which a high school or university presents and connects itself to the general public. You probably won’t be gathering to enjoy watching students take a math or English test, but on the other hand, you are likelier to watch a sporting event, a music concert, or a play.
For students, participation in sports or performing arts is a team building experience, one in which students receive public recognition, require the ability to be a leader and a follower at appropriate times, and one in which hard work and practice pay off in a very public way. In many cases these are experiences that are just as valid and valuable to future prospective employers as the ability to do well in English and math. Traditional sitdown classes, such as English, math, and science, are much less likely to provide this kind of experience.
Poor facilities don’t help your athletics program train as easily, and don’t lend themselves to a comfortable experience to potential audiences. Larger audiences who attend DHS events groom greater community support for the public schools.
Probably one factor that led to the DHS stadium being chosen over Emerson upgrades is that it is a facility that will be used by more students than Emerson. When there are limited resources, utilitarian arguments tend to weigh heaviest. Note that the discussion over school budget has tended to focus on class size and not running lower-enrolled courses.
“And making the decision to build a hotsy totsy stadium feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have to pay the bill when the economy is taking a nose dive!”
The way the stadium funding is playing out, it appears that the district is getting a pretty good deal right now. Interest rates have been falling, and construction costs have been going down as construction businesses are very eager to have any work come their way. In this case, the stadium project will be providing employment to local workers.
I note that today’s Enterprise reported on a DHS-sponsored track meet at Toomey Field. I wonder how much had to be paid to rent the facility from the university.
“Poor facilities don’t help your athletics program train as easily, and don’t lend themselves to a comfortable experience to potential audiences. Larger audiences who attend DHS events groom greater community support for the public schools.”
In the arena of college sports, many universities spend lots of money on their sports program because their successes tend to bring in much bigger alumni donations, which in turn can go to classroom facilities and faculty staffing. Perhaps a cynical fact, but an economic reality.
“In the arena of college sports, many universities spend lots of money on their sports program because their successes tend to bring in much bigger alumni donations, which in turn can go to classroom facilities and faculty staffing. Perhaps a cynical fact, but an economic reality.”
This is pure bull. Just about every sports complex, be it in a university or city, plows funding it makes right back into the sports complex, then makes even more demands on the city/university for more sports concessions (pardon the pun). The two state universities I went to engaged in this sort of nonsense. Sports complexes that make big bucks are in it for themselves, and that’s it. In fact, they tend to bleed off money from other programs to sustain themselves. Get real!
” For the one billionth time, the way education funding works, this money can only be used for facilities never for the classroom. There is no way possible for the district to do anything with this money other than what it chose to do–use it on facilities.”
And for the billonth time, that $ can be used for Emerson or other things within the parameters.
“In addition, the Blue and White Foundation gave the school district a $100,000 check, the first of many as they hope to raise $1.5 million towards the construction project.
They are also looking for donors interested in naming rights to the stadium and they are looking for corporate sponsorship for the new scoreboard.
I say all of this to suggest that the district has probably gotten the best possible deal it could get out of this.”
Is this supposed to make the school board look good? Are you serious? Here, you are admitting that the $ for the stadium will come from three seperate revenue streams, and you are admitting the blue and white foundation aims to raise 1.5 million for the project.
This means the school board has other ways of raising $, $ they could use for saving teachers and academics. Are you telling me that the blue and white foundation could not be pressed into raising that 1.5 million for teacher’s salaries or other things? The corporate sponsors couldn’t be pushed to raise $ for desperately needed classroom supplies?
And I read the articles of association for B&W, which are vague enough that saving teachers and other academics like math, science, and reading would be within bounds of their articles, and therefore that 1.5 million could be used for other things than facilities, So your “seperate revenue streams” argument is bogus.
Furthermore, you admit that corporate sponsorship is going to provide $ is going to be used for a new scoreboard!!! what the blazes?!!!
how about finding creative ways to use that corporate $ to save the teachers? Are you saying James Hammond’s hands are completely tied there?
“I invite them once again to read the reports from last June on the state of the stadium and what needs replacement and the listen to the students who use the facility–a broad range of students from football players, track and field athletes, the average student for physical education, people who utilize the stands, etc. The district had very little choice but to renovate the stadium. “
Oh, pease!! You would do your best David to just stop talking because you have a chronic case of foot in mouth disease.
You call “football players, track and field, and students for physical educatiuon…” a “broad range” of students?!!! Excuse me, but there are many students who don’t use the stadium on a regular basis, who have wants and needs too. A bunch of athletes and their fans is not a representation of the entire community for freak’s sake!!! There are people who go to DHS who won’t ever use the stadium, or rarely. There are people who are into things like music, math, science and reading. There are ways of doing sports without a fancy new scoreboard.
“For those who question building a stadium during thse times, the financing scheme just makes sense in terms of interest rates. The money cannot, against, cannot be used for the classroom, so it is irrelevant that we are having to make other cuts right now. This money is not available for anything other than facilities. For whatever reason, this is a point that needs to be made fifty times and I promise you someone will still post a comment questioning it.”
As someone else said, you can make your point 5000 times and it doesn’t ake you any more right than when you said it the first time.
Your first argument is that we can get our frills for reduced cost during hard economic times. Once again, just please stop talking you are digging yourself in deeper and deeper.
Once again, lets assume that you are right on the revenue stream. As stated, the B&W’s $ is not bound by those parameters, so there is no excuse for the board not to push B&W to use the $ for more important things (I might add that we just passed a parcel tax for facilities like libraries in case you forgot that.)
“But they did not have a full report at that time. It was a small part of the school closure discussion. It was never presented as a primary reason why Emerson needed to close.”
Stop burying yourself. Your excuse for the board in saying they were going to close Emerson is they made the judgment to put it on the table before they even read the report on the facility. In other words, they made a reckless decision that sparked outrage in the community that didn’t need to happen because they didn’t have their facts before they opened their mouths, which is an argument for firing them all come next election.
Please David, just stop trying to report on this. You are making yourself and the school board look more rediculous and reckless all the time.
Physical Education IS education, and it’s required. Check the Education Code. Additionally, the stadium is the most used facility in the entire school district. It’s used at least 5 days a week, often 10+ hours each day.
The BWF can, and has raised funds for teachers. Last year it halted all efforts in order to support the community-wide efforts that raised $1.7 million. They organized the All Schools Rally, and encouraged their fundraising base to donate, which it did.
We need to stop pitting program against program. The bottom line is they are all our kids, and a scientist or mathematician is no less worthy than an athlete or artist. To those who are so negative here, would you say these things to the face of a child who depends on a stadium to succeed? There’s room for everyone in our community. As adults, we should lead by example and accept that children are all different, and worthy.
Thank you, to W,Q,and DSF volunteer and donor. You are absolutely right!
“As someone else said, you can make your point 5000 times and it doesn’t ake you any more right than when you said it the first time.
Your first argument is that we can get our frills for reduced cost during hard economic times. Once again, just please stop talking you are digging yourself in deeper and deeper.”
I think WDF’s point is pretty good. Athletics and music are the reason that many kids even look forward to school. Other people have a “church lady” mentality about school, that it’s dogmatically all about serving your time on your butt at a desk in math, English, and science class and anything else is a frill. And if you disagree with that position, well then you’re just wrong — 5000 times wrong. These are important subjects, but a waste of time for many if you don’t have much community building activity to make students want to be there.
Good point skeptic. I’d add as well that given the state of lack of activity and obesity among children, you cannot understate the importance of encouraging such activities.
“how about finding creative ways to use that corporate $ to save the teachers?”
Tell them to contribute to DSF.
Caine,
Your expectation is that we pony up additional money to cover teachers every time they are threatened with cutting positions and classes. They haven’t taken a cut. So many others around here have had their salaries cut, myself included (after making my DSF contributions last year and already my PTA contributions this year). It looks like teacher morale is so bad that they don’t even seem serious about helping their colleagues with a cut. My contribution won’t help their bad morale. And after we come up with money to cover them this year, we’ll be expected to do it again next year. When will it end?
By contrast the stadium is becoming a bargain in these times, and once it’s paid for, we won’t have to lay out any big money for it for a long time.
I fully support the stadium renovation. I have absolutely see zero problems with having a safe location for school athletics. I think teachers like to work in clean, safe places. That goes for the P.E. teachers too. The arguments being made against it are the same arguments we heard when the school board voted to fund the renovation of Martin Luther King Jr High School – another location that had been waiting 30 years.
Sunday’s Enterprise had a nice story about the DHS boys track team breaking the record for the 4×800 relay by 4 seconds, a record that had stood for 36 years. This was done at Toomey field.
I wonder if the gentleman had trained on the DHS track. If not, then what good is the track field as it currently is.
Let me see if I can try to understand all of the rebuttals to my argument:
Donor argues that we shouldn’t pit program against program, but that is exactly what you do do when the budget is tight. It is called setting priorities.
Skeptic argues physical education is important, which is a straw man because I never argued agaisnt physical education, I argued against the stadium upgrade. I am arguing against a fancy new stadium with a scoreboard upgrade, which can be done without. If skeptic thinks the scoreboard is just as important as math, science, and reading, then skeptic’s priorities are screwed up.
tight times states that buying a stadium upgrade can be done for reduced cost, which means we should have a frill if the frill can be bought cheaply. A weak argument.
Ryan Kelly goes on a tanget about MLK jr. as if that has anything to do with a fancy new stadium. I also think it is disingenuous to call it “stadium renovation” as if buying a new scoreboard is the same as repairing broken walls or floors.
Caine
I believe Mr. Kelly was referring to Martin Luther King Jr. High School, not the man himself. King High School is an alternative High School in Davis.
The definition of rennovate is “to restore to good condition; make NEW or as if new again; repair”, since the scoreboard doesn’t work half the time, I’m pretty sure no one is being disingenuous.
Also the rest of the field is in very bad shape. Even if the scoreboard did work, it would be a renovation. A lot of times when you repair your home, you do the major items, and then the “while we’re at it” items. Why? Because you’re only going to get a chance to do things once. And frankly right now the cost is right.
“Furthermore, you admit that corporate sponsorship is going to provide $ is going to be used for a new scoreboard!!! what the blazes?!!!”
Seems like a pretty good idea to me. Businesses are all about branding, marketing, and advertising. There’s sponsorship on the Toomey field scoreboard. Why should the DHS scoreboard be any different? At least we’ll get one that works.
I’m not going to waste breath picking apart all the minute pieces of your arguments. The picture here is the three of you are going to insist just as the owner of this blog does with straight faces that your
Santa wish list cannot be done without during hard economic times, and somehow that list is just as important as the core subjects are and that the school board is really setting priorities even though the evidence to the contrary is right in front of your collective faces as a 500lb elephant is. You absolutely have to have that stadium and there is no way around it whatsoever their is absolutely no other facility priority that needs to be tended to which is at all more important than a freakn scoreboard!!
One person here names his/herself as “friend of DHS” so we know where that person stands.
Caine 607 X
You make no sense. Can you stop posting.
Thankyou,
Community of the Vangaurd
Caine,
Is it just the scoreboard you’re mostly worked up over? If business/corporate sponsorship is available to pay for it, I don’t see the point in levelling criticism at them (businesses), just because they’re not donating it to pay for teachers. They have to worry about their bottom line, and the best opportunities for publicity, and helping to pay for a score board will be a constant reminder to the public of that donation. If they donated to pay for teachers, their donation would quickly be forgotten. That’s probably the best arrangement to fund that.
As for whether the rest of the field should be replaced, I regularly run for personal fitness. I live close to DHS. Whenever I want to do a track workout, I use the Toomey field; better for training — marked lanes, and better, even, harder surface year around. Makes me wonder how the DHS track team trains. My own high school had a much, much better track/stadium facility two decades ago.
I don’t disagree that other facilities in the district need upgrades, but I definitely see the DHS field has plenty of problems.
Woodland JUSD proposing to put $110 bond measure on 2010 ballot to cover facilities projects.
[url]http://www.dailydemocrat.com/ci_12147278[/url]
Just one more comment. I usually find it is a waste of time to argue the semantics of specific points if we do not agree on the fundamentals. I believe the people who have argued against me:
1) see the stadium upgrade with the scoreboard just as necessary as math, science, music, and reading classes.
2) Education should never be cut under any uncertain terms. There is not one tax increase for edcuation they are willing to do without
Since Caine has generously offered to waste his time with the last post in order to establish his set of fundamentals, I believe that Caine:
1) sees that facilities money should be spent on teachers salaries [even though it is illegal]
2) believes that anyone (foundation, individual, business) who wants to donate money (even outside the tax stream) to pay for a new scoreboard has screwed up values
skeptic:
wrong on both points.
The facilities $ can be spent on other facilities projects. THe other revenue streams can be spent on salaries.
I dont blame individual businesses for donations. I blame the school board for accepting those donations and not using them for salaries, text books, or basic supplies, which we know are always in question considering we vote on a new tax every other year to save basic services.
I would be very interested to know under what conditions people on this blog would think that the programs can be done without.
So if a business wants to pay for a scoreboard, you want the school board to take that money and spend it on something else.
“The facilities $ can be spent on other facilities projects. THe other revenue streams can be spent on salaries.
I dont blame individual businesses for donations. I blame the school board for accepting those donations and not using them for salaries, text books, or basic supplies, which we know are always in question considering we vote on a new tax every other year to save basic services.”
I’m with you on this one. Frills are frills by any other name.
“I’m with you on this one. Frills are frills by any other name.”
Did you and Caine share these sentiments at the school board meeting when they decided to make the HS stadium the top facility priority? Someone else reported a month or two ago that 14 people (parents, students, teachers) got up during public comment to speak in favor of the stadium. Not one person spoke up for anything else, or against building the stadium.
Seems like some of you don’t like to exercise your right to free speech at times when it might actually be meaningful.
Like I said, it is rediculous to go on side points. I asked people supporting the stadium upgrade to refute my claim they think stadiums are on the par with math and science, and they didn’t refute that. They don’t refute the big issues, but try to tie up the argument in all of these little side points. A fancy stadium somehow is just so important in this economy.
I’ll refute your point because I don’t think it comes down to a choice of stadiums versus math and science. I see no evidence to support the claim that we are choosing the stadium over either math or science.
I think you have a situation where you have a stadium that is dangerous to the students, they decided that the finances were right now to deal with it, and they decided this is probably the only time in the next 30 years they will have the financing to cover issues such as the scoreboard (which apparently doesn’t work), so they are hitting it in one fell swoop. Makes sense.
“I asked people supporting the stadium upgrade to refute my claim they think stadiums are on the par with math and science, and they didn’t refute that.”
You are a piece of work at articulating yourself!
There you go again. So you want to take the stadium facility money and illegally spend it on teachers in math, science, etc.? You can propose that idea 5000 times (as you said earlier) and it will still be illegal.
If it’s donors you’re talking about, I suppose you must be also irked that UCD took Robert and Magrit Mondavi’s money to build the Mondavi Center instead of paying faculty.
“how about finding creative ways to use that corporate $ to save the teachers? Are you saying James Hammond’s hands are completely tied there?”
I think what Caine is trying to say is that he wants Hammond to fundraise for teachers’ jobs instead of for a stadium. But I don’t think Hammond is doing the fundraising. It’s the Blue and White Foundation. And I don’t necessarily think it’s Hammond’s job to initiate fundraising for teachers at this time.
The problem with trying to fundraise for teachers is that it’s all one-time money. You can save the pink-slipped teachers’ jobs for next year, but then you’ve built in a deficit for yourself for future years, because there’s no guaranteed funding for them 2-3 years out. Then you end up giving them pink slips again next year. Last year the district had Measure W as the potential future funding after DSF raised their one-time money.
Sacramento Bee reports on DHS stadium in today’s paper:
[url]http://www.sacbee.com/yolo/story/1812059.html[/url]
This is how the district gets these projects approved. and this is how their supporters justify it:
They put some of the cash into “maitenance” to justify it as a maitenance job while they load up on the x-mas list. They get the new scoreboard, concession stand (of all things!) and lord knows what else. Don’t be suprised if solar panels and other things materialize. They get to justify this as simple repair when we both know it will be the whole nine yards and those whole nine yards won’t be cheap. These people are dishonest, and dishonesty with our $ is why they shouldn’t have control of any of it.
Then the people are going to cry a river about $ to make basic repairs to emerson and schools in the future. I’m sorry, but if the schools close because of lack of funds, many people in this town will get what they deserve.
“Then the people are going to cry a river about $ to make basic repairs to emerson and schools in the future. I’m sorry, but if the schools close because of lack of funds, many people in this town will get what they deserve.”
You may represent a valid dissenting minority, here, but
anon raised a valid point above that I notice you still haven’t answered:
did you take the time to make your views known when the board voted to move forward with the stadium? Because it seems that no dissent was registered during public comment.
makes it look like you’re now flailing impotently when you could have taken the time to make an effective case for yourself when it really mattered.
Take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror, and do a better job next time!
Prince of Darkness:
I did not know when this hearing on the stadium was so I didn’t know it was happening when it did, so your point is a non-one. And if your argument is that I need to follow everything my loser school board does, give me a break.
Prince of Darkness:
you and many people who agree with you do not address the main problem. The main issue is do you believe somehow that scoreboards and concession stands are on the par of math science and reading. No-one who has argued in favor of this upgrade has addressed this, instead only going onto side points and trying to bog the conversation down. They refuse to address the issue because they know they look rediculous.
No one has adequately addressed my points so far and answered the tough questions. They can’t so they take to the offensive.
“The main issue is do you believe somehow that scoreboards and concession stands are on the par of math science and reading.”
Again, basically strawman arguments. You either ignore that anyone has made a response to you, or can’t clarify your point well enough for anyone to give you an answer.
Repeat: you can’t spend facilities money on math, science and reading teachers. 5000 times you can’t.
And if someone/group wants to donate their own money for facilities for their own individual reasons, that’s their own damn business. If you are criticizing their choice to make such a donation, maybe they think math, science, and reading are adequate for now.
“I did not know when this hearing on the stadium was so I didn’t know it was happening when it did, so your point is a non-one. And if your argument is that I need to follow everything my loser school board does, give me a break.”
Regular school board meetings are the 1st & 3rd Thursdays of the month. Jeff Hudson usually writes a preview article of the meeting usually on Tuesday or Wednesday preceding the meeting in the Enterprise. Agenda is posted online, usually the Friday before the meeting. I have heard that you can even contact the district office and have the agenda e-mailed to you when it is released before each meeting.
The facilities prioritization discusssions (which most frequently discussed the stadium, Emerson, and the DHS MPR) actually spanned over several meetings, extending back to the facilities master plan that was carried out last summer and involved community meetings earlier in the year. All of this was summarized in Enterprise articles and culminated in the March meeting to place the stadium at the top of the priority list.
Strawman my rear.
This is what WDF said:
“But sports and performing arts are the main means by which a high school or university presents and connects itself to the general public. You probably won’t be gathering to enjoy watching students take a math or English test, but on the other hand, you are likelier to watch a sporting event, a music concert, or a play.
For students, participation in sports or performing arts is a team building experience, one in which students receive public recognition, require the ability to be a leader and a follower at appropriate times, and one in which hard work and practice pay off in a very public way. In many cases these are experiences that are just as valid and valuable to future prospective employers as the ability to do well in English and math. Traditional sitdown classes, such as English, math, and science, are much less likely to provide this kind of experience.
Poor facilities don’t help your athletics program train as easily, and don’t lend themselves to a comfortable experience to potential audiences. Larger audiences who attend DHS events groom greater community support for the public schools.”
Ergo, we need a new scoreboard, new concession stands, and solar panels. He sees sports as the equivalent of math science and reading, and he uses that equivalence to justify a frivolous expenditure.
So there is no strawman at all.
Then you claim I am attacking the individual donors. First of all there are 2 parties to blame: 1 the school board and the Davis schools foundation, because they have control over what to do with the $. That 1.5 million the DSF is looking for can be spent on other things.
Have you (Caine 607 X) considered that a stadium actually generates revenue? How much outside revenue is the current stadium bringing? Not much, it seems.
Do you think that plans can be devised that would leave the scoreboard in place, whether it works or not (many saying it doesn’t work anyway), that would be cheaper than buying a new one?
Anytime that the decision is made to upgrade or replace a facility, everything has to be brought up to code, including ADA (Americans w/ Disabilities Act). Does the current concession stand meet ADA code? If not, then is it cheaper to keep the current concession stand and bring it up to code? or would it be cheaper to build a new one that is already up to code?
I didn’t know that plans called for solar panels. If that’s the case, then I suppose there are government subsidies and savings on electricity.
“First of all there are 2 parties to blame: 1 the school board and the Davis schools foundation, because they have control over what to do with the $. That 1.5 million the DSF is looking for can be spent on other things.”
DSF is not fundraising for the new stadium. They don’t fundraise for facilities; I think it’s in their by-laws. It is the Blue and White Foundation that is currently fundraising for the stadium.
And if you want to influence school board opinion, then it is more effective to do so as the process is happening, rather than stay silent about your views until after the decisions have been made and then call them all “losers” for a decision that you disagree with. I note above that there were plenty of opportunities for input.
Surprise to see this still hot and going.
I think the frustrating thing arguing with Caine is that the individual seems to lack a good grasp of the facts. It’s one thing to differ on opinions, it’s another thing to try to deal with a complete misunderstanding of facts.
First, we have the confusion between the Davis Schools Foundation and Blue and White Foundation. This is at least somewhat minor, but there is an important distinction there.
Second, we still have the pervasive confusion between general fund money and facilities money.
Third, “That 1.5 million the DSF is looking for can be spent on other things.”
This is really a misunderstanding how the process works. You act as though all people share the same values as you do and the same priorities. That is not the case. Moreover, most donations are not blank checks that can be spent how someone seems fit, instead most go for a specific purpose. People can choose as to how they want the money to be spent.
Finally, the school board has made the determination, and you can argue with it, but they made it that they are not going to use one-time money to fund ongoing projects. I think that’s a wise decision because otherwise next year you simply face the same dilemma.
Again, same damned thing. Let’s argue the tiny points, so we don’t have to look at the larger picture.
Yes I meant B&W foundation, not DSF. I have already rebutted and refuted the garbage about the friggin’ seperation of facilities $ vs. general fund. Again, I argued that B&W does not have its hands tied to facilities so that crap goes right out the window. I also said that Emerson maitenance was higher on the priorities list than scoreboards and concession stands for faciilities funds.
Again, I am not going to get bogged down in these side arguments without addressing the real issue. WDF came out with a straight face and put math, reading, and science at the same level of friggin’ sports to justify this rediculous expenditure.
I also argued supporters of the stadium were using a cloak of “maitenance” to justify frivolous expenditures i.e. concession stands and scoreboards. If that point is confusing to you then I’m sorry.
“Moreover, most donations are not blank checks that can be spent how someone seems fit, instead most go for a specific purpose.”
Isn’t it amazing how selective you can be about your scruples? When you are arguing for the stadium over Emerson, or B&W $ should go to a stadium over basic needs your ethics goes out the window, but to keep the $ you suddenly are concerned about the ethical use of that $?
“Anytime that the decision is made to upgrade or replace a facility, everything has to be brought up to code, including ADA (Americans w/ Disabilities Act). Does the current concession stand meet ADA code? If not, then is it cheaper to keep the current concession stand and bring it up to code? or would it be cheaper to build a new one that is already up to code?”
Now we have a new argument!!! The only way to be ADA compliant is to purchase a brand new concession stand and scoreboard!! I love this!!! This is too much!! Now we are concerned about the disabled!!
Talk about a non-follow!! This is exactly what I am talking about with the disengenousness. the dishonesty knows no bounds.
Again, let us stick to the issue. People just love to continue changing the subject. I have argued math, science, reading and basic subj’s are more important than sports, and they are certainly more important than the garbage we are getting. Again, the point about seperation of funds is garbage b/c the B&W does not have its hands tied. B&W ought to be ashamed of itself. The school board should work to raise the $ and solicit donations for basic services, which they remind us over and over are in jeopardy.
I find your reasoning interesting, you seem to think that what you think is most important is what everyone should think is most important.
“I have argued math, science, reading and basic subj’s are more important than sports”
This is your big issue.
That’s fine. But you don’t get to dictate those values to others.
There are two aspects of this and only one of them has to do with priority of values. The other one that you are consistently ignoring has to do with availability of funding. Funding is not available for math, science, reading, and basic subjects. it is available to do a facilities project, the school board prioritized that funding.
“they are certainly more important than the garbage we are getting”
Let me ask you this–how many school board meetings have you been to where this subject has come up and you have expressed your viewpoint? How many people have you organized to pressure the school district?
“Moreover, most donations are not blank checks that can be spent how someone seems fit, instead most go for a specific purpose.”
Isn’t it amazing how selective you can be about your scruples? When you are arguing for the stadium over Emerson, or B&W $ should go to a stadium over basic needs your ethics goes out the window, but to keep the $ you suddenly are concerned about the ethical use of that $?
I am having trouble deciphering your point here. My point was that people donate money for specific purposes. It has nothing to do with ethics. You cannot simply use a donation however you want. It doesn’t work that way.
Look here’s the bottom line, the Blue and White Foundation made a decision that building a stadium was important for our community. There is a safety issue. There is an educational component. There is a physical fitness component. Etc.
You don’t agree. You have a choice. You can either sit here on a message board and whine about it and make inarticulate arguments that don’t understand the facts or you can organize yourself and raise money. You can even join the foundation yourself and get them to change their policies, especially since I believe you said you were a graduate of DHS.
The problem right now and you have not addressed is that the school district has decided they are not using one-time monies for on-going expenses. That means even if the Blue and White foundation wanted to raise money more generally, as the Davis Schools Foundation has in the past, it would not go to what you want it to go.
Finally, you keep bringing up the scoreboard issue. The scoreboard doesn’t not work nor does it fulfill the purpose of serving the adjacent field. They have already taken out work on the safety issues involving the field, the marginal cost of throwing in a scoreboard is not that much and it’s something they have to do at some point anyway. They are really only going to get one shot here, the economy and financing make sense for now. You’re basically arguing a strawman here pointing to one part of the project that you don’t see as being worthy whereas the district is looking at the big picture facility needs, they have made the decision to renovate the site based on the safety concerns but decided in the process to do the entire project now.
You keep bringing up Emerson as higher on the priorities list than the scoreboards. Maybe it is. But it was not higher on the list than the site overall. You can’t piecemail it, you have to economize the project. Emerson was largely an issue of ADA and other codes which are about 30 years old and out of compliance, but right now those are not safety issues and thus the stadium site, in its entirety was seen as a higher priority and so it has gone first. It does not make fiscal sense to only do a small portion of the project given the costs for construction, for design, and the financing issues. It just doesn’t make sense. You don’t seem to understand these issues. You are simply dogmatically holding to your own notions of what should be given priority. Well you are not on the school board, you have not spoken up at meetings, you have not organized the community, and you have been outworked, out-organized, and out-voted.
You might be happier with Dixon schools. They actually voted to cut athletics. Perhaps that represents priorities more to your liking.
If you choose not to fund athletics, then that pretty much means there’s no point in funding a stadium. Maybe that will motivate more families to move to Dixon, huh?
“Now we have a new argument!!! The only way to be ADA compliant is to purchase a brand new concession stand and scoreboard!! I love this!!! This is too much!! Now we are concerned about the disabled!!”
Actually this isn’t a sudden new argument, even for this discussion. ADA compliance was discussed at several board meetings when reviewing facilities funding projects. If you modify, upgrade, or build a new facility, everything has to be brought up to code. That includes ADA, which was passed in 1990. So most older facilities in particular have to address ADA compliance.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990#Title_III_-_Public_Accommodations_.28and_Commercial_Facilities.29[/url]
“You are simply dogmatically holding to your own notions of what should be given priority. Well you are not on the school board, you have not spoken up at meetings, you have not organized the community, and you have been outworked, out-organized, and out-voted.”
Yes, people have a right to hold onto their ideals and disagree with YOUR set of priorities. Last time I looked this was a free country, to think as one pleases, and express opinions freely. As for the comment about not speaking up at meetings, what is the point? I have tried in the past, been treated w utter contempt and disrespect by a very dysfunctional school board. A school board, by the way, that voted to give Bruce Colby a raise, while it handed out pink slips to teachers. I am not certain my view has been “outvoted”. It was overridden by a dysfunctional school board, that has a screwed up set of priorities IMHO.
Butting in:
“That’s fine. But you don’t get to dictate those values to others.
There are two aspects of this and only one of them has to do with priority of values.”
you are correct, I do not. However, the values you have is the primary reason the schools are always in the fiscal hole we are in and have been in for years, because you don’t prioritize.
There is a reason sports programs are not on par w/ math/sci/reading. The odds of landing a lucrative career in the NBA/NFL/NBL is about as good as winning the lottery, in which case you may as well play the lottery. Less work.
“Look here’s the bottom line, the Blue and White Foundation made a decision that building a stadium was important for our community. There is a safety issue. There is an educational component. There is a physical fitness component. Etc.”
Yes, I’m sure there was much concern about an unsafe scoreboard, and snack bar.
“You don’t agree. You have a choice. You can either sit here on a message board and whine about it and make inarticulate arguments that don’t understand the facts or you can organize yourself and raise money. You can even join the foundation yourself and get them to change their policies, especially since I believe you said you were a graduate of DHS.”
Raise $? I’d rather burn in hell!! I wouldn’t donate a dime to the schools until they clean up their act. I’m not a graduate of Davis.
“the marginal cost of throwing in a scoreboard is not that much and it’s something they have to do at some point anyway.”
no they don’t.
The other one that you are consistently ignoring has to do with availability of funding. Funding is not available for math, science, reading, and basic subjects. it is available to do a facilities project, the school board prioritized that funding.
“There is a reason sports programs are not on par w/ math/sci/reading. The odds of landing a lucrative career in the NBA/NFL/NBL is about as good as winning the lottery, in which case you may as well play the lottery.”
And there are things that you clearly ignore and overlook.
You assume that sports is about teaching an immdediate job skill — that the only reason you’d bother to be in sports is if you could get a job as professional athlete. By that rationale, you’d also have to say that music and performing arts are a waste of time, because not many of those kids will end up as professionals there, either.
But then why not also extend your argument to math. Lots of kids are taking trig and calculus. Believe it or not, odds are pretty remote that most of them will really ever use trig or calculus in their everyday jobs. I took algebra in school and I still haven’t needed the quadratic formula outside of class. We could probably pick apart English lit. science classes in a similar fashion.
Apart from doing something just to enjoy it, athletics and performing arts offer experiences that are valuable right now and later on in a job setting. Committing to work together as a team, working toward a deadline to perform in front of an audience. And in working together on goals, students form positive social relationships. I don’t see English, math, or science classes at DHS offering that kind of group work setting. Years from now I doubt that today’s students will reminisce about math or Shakespeare the way they will remember experiences in music or athletics.
Occasionally I hire people, and I look for evidence that a person might be able to work well with others in a professional setting. For a younger adult, participation in high school team sports or performing arts may be the only experience they’ve had to offer as that kind of evidence.
Clearly you and I disagree here. Maybe team discipline and general performance experience just aren’t important in your world. But there is a far wider range of skills and experiences for the job market than you allow yourself to imagine.
“Raise $? I’d rather burn in hell!! I wouldn’t donate a dime to the schools until they clean up their act. I’m not a graduate of Davis.”
I see. All talk and no action on your part. Don’t show up to meetings, and of course don’t speak up at meetings to voice your views, complain that more money needs to go to teachers but refuse to do anything about it even as DSF is starting their campaign and offers you that opportunity, if you really cared. But on the other hand, waste hours at the computer complaining about it!
no reason kids shouldn’t have a great place to conduct sporting activities. no reason there should be a bike repair class either at the high school. lets do both. i don’t believe in ever denying teenagers opportunities. we can choose to do all if we wanted. enough in trying to stop the good will activities of others, including the blue and white foundation. if you don’t like the “movement” to improve the field, build momentum for something else.