When the Davis Enterprise came out against the four-person engine company, one knew that it would provoke a response within both the community and among supporters of the fire department. When it coincided with revelations about the number of firefighters who made over 100K, one recognized that the urgency for a good strong response was going to increase.
“What I want are police officers out there that are using their training and their instincts, I don’t want them thinking about oh somebody’s going to be reviewing what I’m doing.”
So I find it little surprising that Mr. Puntillo jumps into the fray on behalf of the fire department and as per the usual, he does so without a lot of facts or research. The facts he cites are either wrong, taken out of context, or simply refuted by other more pertinent facts. However, I believe a thorough response is required here to counter the misinformation that Mr. Puntillo presents.
Mr. Puntillo’s prime argument is that the three-person engine is substandard. He argues that there is a minimum four-person staffing requirement for municipal departments.
Our research suggests that while OSHA maintains the “two-in, two-out” standard, the staffing requirements by which to accomplish that standard have considerable flexibility.
As we suggested on April 10, 2009, a letter to Congress from OSHA in 1999 clarifies that this standard is not a staffing requirement but rather a worker safety practice.
“It does not require fire departments to hire additional firefighters; it does not require four-person fire companies; it does not require four persons on a fire truck. Most fire departments have more than four firefighters and can assemble the numbers required on the scene by waiting for others to arrive. During this time the fire may be attacked from the outside, sizing-up operations may occur, and emergency rescue necessary to save lives may take place. Additional staff can be assembled by such means as calling for a second fire company at the scene, calling in additional firefighters who are on standby, and calling on other nearby fire departments when necessary.”
Furthermore the OSHA ruling acknowledges hardship and limitation for smaller fire departments that such a staffing requirement would impose:
“It is anticipated that small fire departments may rely on “mutual aid” agreements with neighboring jurisdictions to supply additional firefighters to assist with interior structural firefighting, if that is necessary to ensure compliance with “two-in, two-out.” The intent of the “two-in, two-out” rule is a worker safety practice requirement, not a staffing requirement.”
This is precisely the conundrum that cities like Davis are dealing with.
If Mr. Puntillo had been reading the Vanguard he would know that four person engine teams are hardly the norm among most fire departments in comparable sized cities.
When we compared Davis to 11 other comparable cities, we found that just two others had exclusively four person teams–Folsom and West Sacramento. In the meantime, Berkeley, Fairfield, Napa, Palo Alto, Roseville, Vacaville, San Luis Obispo, Woodland, and Chico have three-person teams. Many of these cities have shifted to three person teams from four person teams for the same reasons that Davis now needs to consider it.
So for Mr. Puntillo to suggest that four is somehow the norm, is erroneous.
Mr. Puntillo proceeds to make the same argument that the fire department does, suggesting that Davis spends substantially less than surrounding communities on per-capita fire service.
“The fact is that Davis’ per-capita fire service expenditures are already less – sometimes substantially less – than surrounding communities. Out of 13 California cities of comparable size, Davis ranks 11th in the number of firefighters per 1,000 population.”
Of those same twelve cities (Puntillo probably added in Sacramento which the city sometimes uses as well), Davis is at the very bottom in service calls. It is at the very bottom in calls per 1000 people. It is in the middle in terms of calls per station. And in the bottom quarter in terms of calls per fire fighter.
The bottom line is that Davis ranks near the top in cost per service call and at the very top among those stations that provide only basic as opposed to advanced life support services (which includes ambulance service).
Puntillo continues:
“Even at our current expenditure levels, Davis is able to meet the five-minute response standard only half the time, and several sections of our city are simply too far away from a fire station for anybody to get there within five minutes. Reducing fire staffing levels will further erode a safety situation already sitting at a knife’s point.”
It took some time to figure out his point here. After all it is not immediately apparent how a four person engine team versus a three person engine team would make a difference in response time. After further consideration, it seems likely this is an argument in favor of a fourth fire station. At this point, I do not know where the city would get the money to do that. However, that is a separate issue from fire staffing.
He continues:
“Nobody doubts the challenges of our current fiscal mess. But in public safety, money saved is time lost. I simply do not believe the money saved justifies putting our city at risk. We may have ‘gotten along perfectly fine’ with three at one time – but not anymore.”
And yet most other cities appear to be getting along fine with three at one time. After all the department only responded to 35 structure fires last year. It would seem that the fire department could figure out an arrangement to provide the numbers they need for such emergencies.
Moreover, Mr. Puntillo simply does not seem to understand the magnitude of our budget crisis.
The problem is that the city faces a huge deficit and a larger structural problem. It’s easy to focus on public safety as a function of simply fire and police, but we have $13 million of unmet needs much of which is unrepaired roads and infrastructure in need of upgrades, that is a potential public safety problem as well.
The city is facing the cutbacks in services across the board and a primary culprit is the amount that we have put into not just staffing but salaries, overtime, and of course, retirement.
Is the department willing to give on anything? After all, we might be able to continue with four person teams if they were willing to take a cutback in salaries and contribute more to their retirement benefit packages. Are they?
However, it appears that most cities in California utilize three person fire teams and they utilize them for more service calls per capita than Davis. It would appear that this is simply a luxury rather than a necessity and given the short-term and long-term economic picture it is simply a luxury that we can no longer afford.
It is a shame that Mr. Puntillo did not want to do more thorough research for his piece, he could have been a great asset in this discussion. As it is, he shed more heat than light on the topic, something he has often charged others with doing.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
keep up the good work!
Discussing anything about fire fighters is difficult because as soon as their logic falls apart they will dart behind “safety” and you can’t possibly be against safety can you???
Keep up the good work, David. This is a significant piece of analytical reporting.
It’s important to hit them with facts because as VFD points out, they will hide behind the public safety card and attempt to Mau Mau anyone into submission with that who dares challenge them. We need to hit them again and again and again.
To paraphrase Ted Puntillo, get 500 votes and you can sit on the council.
oops 5000votes
So only people on the council ar allowed to try to change our city?
Wow!!! Outstanding piece. Ted is frankly naive – as are many on our City Council. The only way to continue paying for City services, is to up taxes. Up taxes, and you drive middle income folks out of Davis. But then the wealthy don’t care, now do they? As long as reality doesn’t hit them where it hurts…
I wanna be a firefighter in Davis. Or even a police officer. Go on a ride along with an officer and you’ll see how little action there is. It’s a cush job and I would rather be a firefighter in Davis than a police officer. There’s less to do as a fire fighter. You get paid massive money to sit around most of the time. Then you get to retire early at 55 and get 100% of your pay when you were working. It’s amazing how many firefighers are retired at an early age and are makin 100k to sit around, drink and play all day. Welfare kings and queens. Wow. I wanna be a firefighter.
Ted Puntillo said, “The National Fire Protection Association, which researches everything from fire helmet thickness to wildland response, calls for minimum four-person staffing for municipal departments, and a five-minute initial response 90 percent of the time.”
I wondered, “Who is the NFPA? Is that an objective source?”
The answer: it’s a union and industry group, paid for by fire unions and the manufacturers who sell firefighting equipment. The NFPA lobbies for higher pay and benefits for firefighters and lobbies for more expensive firefighting equipment. “NFPA membership totals more than 81,000 individuals around the world and more than 80 national trade and professional organizations.”
To take an NFPA statement as objective, as Mr. Puntillo did, is hilarious. The conclusions of the NFPA are designed to put more money in the pockets of firefighters and in the pockets of the folks who sell firefighting gear.
This is a testfor boldness
When you leave out the article that your writing about , it makes your statements pointless .
“””””””So I find it little surprising that Mr. Puntillo jumps into the fray on behalf of the fire department and as per the usual, he does so without a lot of facts or research. The facts he cites are either wrong, taken out of context, or simply refuted by other more pertinent facts. However, I believe a thorough response is required here to counter the misinformation that Mr. Puntillo presents.”””””””
Lets see the article, or are you going to censor that !
anon, The middle class is already priced out of buying in Davis so taxes going up is less important than restrictive housing policies in pricing people out.
When Davis starts to address building homes to bring down the affordability so that the median income can buy the median priced home I’ll start supporting lower taxes and cheaper services.
04/17/09 – 08:54 AM
…
“”””””””And yet most other cities appear to be getting along fine with three at one time. After all the department only responded to 35 structure fires last year. It would seem that the fire department could figure out an arrangement to provide the numbers they need for such emergencies.””””””
“””””””The statistics of course show that most calls do not involve fires, just as Mr. Forbes points out. In fact, only 35 last year involved a structure fire that might have required entry. I agree with the notion of planning for emergencies and having contingencies for worst case scenario. But what those contingencies are should be questioned and developed.”””””””
So because only 35 people have 35 houses catch on fire , your sub standard thinking must be that we need more people and houses to suffer and catch on fire , yes this is really progressive thinking by you David . Let it be known that David Greenwald , Sue Greenwald’s son I believe , wants more loss ,pain ,sadness ,and probably death in the City of Davis .
“””””””Our research suggests that while OSHA maintains the “two-in, two-out” standard, the staffing requirements by which to accomplish that standard have considerable flexibility.””””””””
Until you have a open meeting with the Fire Chief , your research suggests that it is all one sided , and full of statements that are meant to be wrong, to mislead the citizens of Davis .
“Until you have a open meeting with the Fire Chief , your research suggests that it is all one sided , and full of statements that are meant to be wrong, to mislead the citizens of Davis .”
How do you know he hasn’t had an open meeting with the Fire Chief?
The article David references is an Op Ed written by Ted Puntillo and published in The Davis Enterprise on April 14, 2009. You can find it online if you have a subscription to the newspaper or you can view it at the public library or The Davis Enterprise business office.
David is not related to Sue Greenwald and anyone who lives in Davis knows this.
It seems obvious that the person who posted the last three comments doesn’t live in this community and must have a vested interest in the status quo.
“So because only 35 people have 35 houses catch on fire”
35 houses did not catch on fire. 35 “structures” were on fire. This includes sheds, outhouses and other non-residences, such as a fire in a cabinet shop.
Thank you for the great article David! You and the Davis Enterprise deserve a big thumbs up for the coverage on this important issue.
Don’t hand me this crusader B.S. that you’re all about fiscal responsibilty for the city of Davis. Is’nt this really about you as haters? Does’nt it really just piss you off, that those jocks that kicked your ass in High School went to J.C. fire science and are pulling down 110k per annum?
While you, in all your pseudo intelectual splendor are a miserable low wage hack, some still living with there parents! LOL!!
You are clueless to real world deployments, ie; family seperation,imminent danger, real situations where you have to wear the real satchel.
Ted Puntillo is the real deal. And you’re not qualified to carry his gym bag!
And you’re not qualified to carry his gym bag!
Did you mean his mail bag?
Good one Alphonso! LOL!!
“Does’nt it really just piss you off, that those jocks that kicked your ass in High School went to J.C. fire science and are pulling down 110k per annum?”
I give you credit for being funny, but if that was really the case, don’t you think I might have found a different line of work?
Ted Puntillo has done more for this community then the Vanguard ever will.
“Ted Puntillo has done more for this community then the Vanguard ever will.”
How true, how true. Thanks for pointing that out, jc. Ted Puntillo helped put our city $42 million in debt, for which we have no way of paying that mounting bill and have nothing to show for it. Ted Puntillo’s largesse with his buddies in the fire department has brought about a crisis of proportions never before seen in this community. Like jc says, the Vanguard will never do that much bad for this community. Thanks, Ted!
David, thanks for doing the Vanguard. It’s a lot of work and you have to put up w/ the idiotic comments.
“anon, The middle class is already priced out of buying in Davis so taxes going up is less important than restrictive housing policies in pricing people out.
When Davis starts to address building homes to bring down the affordability so that the median income can buy the median priced home I’ll start supporting lower taxes and cheaper services.”
There are plenty of middle income in Davis, that bought in before the housing bubble. Why should they lose their homes so that the City of Davis can fund huge salaries for the firefighters, who are pigging out at the public trough?
Excuse me… Nothing about Mr. Puntillo, but do you really think is it OK for people to risk their life to save yours, or your property, and not be well paid for it? Do you really think they can do their job better with less personnel and less safety? Do you think you will be saffer if they are not???? This is dumb…
CONGRATULATIONS BONNIE ON WINNING YOUR ELECTION AS SECRETARY OF THE LABOR CAUCUS! CECILIA ESCAMILLA GREENWALD LOST!!
Congratulations to Bonnie on winning her election as secretary of the Labor Caucus! She does great work with the CTA and I think she will serve us quite well on the Labor Caucus.
I’m extremely happy to have been re-elected as Northern CA Vice-Chair of the Chicano / Latino Caucus. It’s time to get a Democrat elected as CA State Governor!
I didn’t know what it was either, but with a little help from Google…
NFPA = National Fire Protection Association (http://www.nfpa.org)
“The mission of the international nonprofit NFPA, established in 1896, is to reduce the worldwide burden of fire and other hazards on the quality of life by providing and advocating consensus codes and standards, research, training, and education.
The world’s leading advocate of fire prevention and an authoritative source on public safety, NFPA develops, publishes, and disseminates more than 300 consensus codes and standards intended to minimize the possibility and effects of fire and other risks.
NFPA membership totals more than 81,000 individuals around the world and more than 80 national trade and professional organizations.”
They look pretty credible to me!
They are not a disinterested group, they are made up of industry people with a vested interest in the issue. The equivalent would be a corporate think-tank making a statement on labor issues.
West Sacramento Fire Department has 3 FFs on their engines, not 4 as the Vanguard has repeatedly reported.
Just went by what they told when I called them up, I’ll call again on Monday to clarify
and….?