Last week the Vanguard ran a piece that covered an op-ed by Daniel Filler who argues that the tactics used against the UCD protesters were typical of police tactics used against minorities. Mr. Filler simply argues that police get away with certain tactics on minorities that would outrage the white community if it happened in Middle America.
Both articles had remarkably similar premises, gauging the public’s response to events that occur with white people that have captivated the public and media’s attention, but at the same time when they happen to people of color, there is a large degree of indifference.
For example, in the Caylee article, “How you can play the ‘race card’ in the Casey Anthony case is beyond me.” Of course the race card was not played, we simply asked a question that involved race.
Another response was, “It seems like most things in your world revolve around race. Ever heard of OJ?”
We had a similar response last week. One person argued, “Typical, I don’t care what the issue is but liberals always have to bring race into the equation.”
Another, “Leave it to somebody to bring race into an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with race.”
Still another, “I’m not even going to entertain this retarded discussion with people who pull out the same retarded worn-out arguments. We’ve heard this crap before.”
The responses to both articles was, I think, very telling, that people even in liberal Davis are not ready to have an honest and forthright discussion about racial topics. Of course, all that means to me is that I should be raising these issues more often so that we can have an honest and forthright discussion about racial topics.
The responses in both cases is rather interesting to me because, in both cases, they ponder how we would have responded had the target been a different race. Would we have been captivated by the Caylee Anthony story if the victim were black and would we have been appalled by the pepper spraying if the targets were inner city black youths?
Is that an unacceptable topic of discussion? Well, according to a number of the readers who post here, it was.
A friend of mine often reminds me that the only people who believe racism is a thing of the past are white people.
That shouldn’t be all that surprising. After all, particularly in a mostly white community, white people do not have to deal with race most of the time. Whereas people of color who live in the community are confronted with race and racial difference every day.
It is remarkable to me that every person of color whom I encounter in the region and who graduated from UC Davis has a racial profiling story, where they were pulled over by the police for what they perceive to have been no legitimate reason.
The City of Davis, through the Human Relations Commission in 2009, ran a non-scientific survey about racial attitudes. That study showed dramatic differences by race in terms of perception of being discriminated against.
Racism in 2011, almost 2012, is not the racism we saw in the 1950s and before. We are not talking about people who support discrimination, segregation, separate but equal. We are not even talking about animus, most of the time, for people of other races, though that does come up.
What we are talking about is what researchers have termed symbolic racism, which is a string of stereotypes with racial components – the beliefs that black males are dangerous criminals or that black women are lazy welfare queens come to mind.
The biggest problem, however, may be indifference. There is the belief by many that discrimination is a thing of the past, that institutional racism either does not exist or has ceased to be. Many look at the election of Barack Obama as evidence that people cannot be racist anymore.
As one person wrote last week: “I am so damn tired of the left and left-media’s tendency for interjecting racism into every social and political debate. So how do you race-baiters explain why the conservative Tea Party folks propelled Herman Cain to the top of the Republican primary (until his unfortunate historical lack of libido control took him out)?”
Others questioned how Obama could become President.
Part of it is, as I tried to explain last week, I think there were a good number of people who, given the economy, were willing to overlook their own prejudices. But at the same time, I think there were people who voted for Obama to show how racist they were not. It was particularly telling to see people proudly working for Obama while they ignored racial problems in their own community.
But it is not hard to understand why Republicans who might be leery of liberal blacks would feel comfortable with a Herman Cain, even if they are people inclined to believe the negative stereotypes about black people, and likewise for people voting for Obama despite similar beliefs.
Why? Well Obama and Cain are exemplars. They don’t fit the stereotypes of the lazy and dangerous black man. Instead, they are well-educated, successful, hard-working, and therefore people can overlook their race because they see people who are not threats to them.
At the same time, we do not have to look far for glaring examples of racism directed toward Obama. Yes, we have a black president, but all that means is that a bare majority of the population was willing to elect him to office – some despite their own animus toward blacks, while another sizable majority hates him presumably for his policies and not his skin color.
The “some of my best friends are black” response to accusations of racism actually does not hold much weight, according to research. As people become familiar with others, the person become less of a representative of a certain group and more of an individual. And so people can, in fact, have close friends of a given race while still being prejudiced against the group.
We do not have to look far in our own community to find issues that arise due to the legacy of racial inequality. Many African-American students last year said that they felt like strangers in the Davis community, and that created a level of discomfort. One of my interns last year told me that he had been pulled over so many times by the police that he and his friends stopped driving at night.
And then we have the pervasive achievement gap in the great schools that exist in this community. Most troubling should be findings that that gap exists, even when controlling for socio-economic status and education of the parents. We should be troubled that the children of black and Hispanic college-educated people do substantially worse on standardized tests than the children of white college-educated parents.
We have put effort into addressing these persistent inequalities, but it is far from clear how much headway we have actually made.
These are issues that in 2011 and 2012 we need to tackle, but it is difficult to do so if every time we do it, we are accused of playing the race card. Unfortunately, this country has a bad legacy in terms of race, and I think a lot of people would sooner forget that this is one area where we have not lived up to our credo, “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men [and women] are created equal.”
Having a color blind society does not mean ignoring the past, ignoring the inequities of the present or burying our heads in the sand about the continued racial divide in this nation.
These are all issues that must be deliberated in the future, but to get there we can’t be afraid to discuss them, and that is where are now – afraid of our shadows and our own past and not willing to admit that, while we have come a long way since the day 48 years ago in 1963 that Martin Luther King Jr addressed the nation on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, we are not there yet.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
David must not have had any new ideas for an article this morning so he dipped into his old bag and pulled out the ever so faithful race topic.
simply argues that the tactics used against the protesters are typical of police tactics use against minorities.
I saw the complete video, and to be quite frank, I’ve changed my mind and believed the protestors got what they had coming to them. I don’t give a damn if they were minorities or not.
setting that aside, nobody said race was “an unnacceptable topic of discussion” as the vanguard is putting words into its reader’s collective mouths. Its readers merely said race should not be injected into a discussion that has nothing to do with race. There is a difference, and the Vanguard would do well to understand that, which it appears to be having difficulty with at present time.
The Vanguard is also attacking its readers for voicing opinions it does not personally agree with. I think the vanguard may be bitter because it wants a warmer reception to its own views and is finding that reception is not always forthcoming.
furthermore, this article is largely speculative, making assumptions about what its readers think about race on a daily basis with nothing to back it up. If the vanguard wants to know what I really think on race, it can feel free to speak to me personally anytime, but until then, the vanguard does not trully know what I think – and this article misses the mark by a mile.
[quote]The responses to both articles was I think very telling that people even in liberal Davis are not ready to have an honest and forthright discussion about racial topics. Of course all that means to me is that I should be raising these issues more often so that we can have an honest and forthright discussion about racial topics.[/quote]
What some readers probably object to is injecting the race card into issues where it is completely irrelevant. The UCD pepper spraying incident and the Anthony Cayley case had absolutely nothing whatever to do with race – NOTHING. When race is injected into every issue, whether relevant or not, it becomes the “boy who cried wolf” scenario – people stop listening. This is not good for race relations, as it causes people to turn a deaf ear when there are actually real race issues to discuss.
Secondly, when making blanket statements about people’s ethnicity and how they “feel” about “racism”, it is insulting. The fact of the matter is no one knows how individuals “feel” about any given topic. It also casts certain citizens as the “bad guys” and others as the “good guys”. In essence, if you are an ethnic minority, it is assuming in the racism discussion you are the “good guy” and wear the white hat; whereas if you are not a favored downtrodden ethnic minority, you are the “bad guy” who wears the black hat. In effect these sorts of discussions that bring race into a nonracial incident stereotype how certain people of a particular ethnic persuasion feel. How one-dimensional and not helpful to the very real issue of racism…
[quote]A friend of mine often [b]reminds me[/b] that the [u][b]only[/b][/u] people who believe racism is a thing of the past [u][b]are white people[/b][/u].[/quote]Ok… I parse this statement to indicate that you are personally in agreement with its premise. Sounds ‘kinda “racist” to me. And, based on a lot of experience, very likely untrue, as a global statement.
I’m gonna go a tad off topic… is the vanguard feeling allright? the author may be suffering from depression, I don’t know.
[quote]whereas if you are not a favored downtrodden ethnic minority, you are the “bad guy” who wears the [b]black[/b] hat. [/quote]Great pun, ERM! But seriously, racism does exist. There are laws to deal with some aspects. I believe that it is not nearly as prevalent as it was 30 years or more ago. Some of the ‘worst’ racism is found between individuals of different ‘minority’ groups. My children grew up (as did I) with friends of different races and cultures. I never recall thinking of someone as my Korean friend, or my ‘black’ friend, etc. None of my children have either. On the other hand, my grandmother had black friends that she referred to as “colored”. As a boy, I expressed anger about the use of the term. She was shocked by my reaction… these were close, dear friends of hers… but she grew up in an area that rarely saw “a person of color”, (circa 1910) and the term was what she had learned. It was not a preoperative, as far as she knew.
By all means, talk about/discuss race issues. But if you allege that only “whitey” can be guilty, I won’t listen,.
word should have been “pejorative”… spell check failed me…
HPierce raised a good issue. If the vanguard wants to have discussions on racism then lets have them, but the vanguard is showing just how narrow minded it trully is. there is racism amongst non-whites as well. I remember watching an episode of “moral court” with Larry Elder, and a girl did not want her African American brother to date a girl because she was Nicaraguan and “not her own.”
who can forget the Hutus and the Tutsis? Chinese vs. Japanese? what about the Nation of Islam and its hatred of Jews?
“What some readers probably object to is injecting the race card into issues where it is completely irrelevant. “
So when it comes to race, it is never okay to compare how a minority would have been treated had they been in the same position? Is that your claim?
“Secondly, when making blanket statements about people’s ethnicity and how they “feel” about “racism”, it is insulting.”
If you are insulted by the mere discussion of some items, I would suggest you are too easily insulted.
“David must not have had any new ideas for an article this morning so he dipped into his old bag and pulled out the ever so faithful race topic. “
There is something to this point. I have a couple of stories ready for the week, however, it wasn’t the right time to run them today. I have beat several subjects into the ground. But the discussion on race last week bothered me and I thought it was a good day to address some of the points. Of course you guys have all proven me correct. The answer is that you don’t want to discuss race in any real way.
“The responses to both articles was, I think, very telling, that people even in liberal Davis are not ready to have an honest and forthright discussion about racial topics.”
No, people in Davis thought injecting race into the UCD incident was just plain stupid.
“It is remarkable to me that every person of color whom I encounter in the region and who graduated from UC Davis has a racial profiling story”
Every person? That comes up in every encounter? Hello, how are you? Have you ever been racially profiled in Davis? I say that’s bulldookey
“But it is not hard to understand why Republicans who might be leery of liberal blacks would feel comfortable with a Herman Cain even if they are people inclined to believe the negative stereotypes about black people and likewise for people voting for Obama despite similar beliefs.
Why? Well Obama and Cain are exemplars. They don’t fit the stereotypes of the lazy and dangerous black man. Instead they are well educated, successful, hard-working, and therefore people can overlook their race because they see people who are not threats to them.”
No, wrong again. I, and I’ll say most conservatives, liked Cain because of his conservative views and the fact that he wasn’t an insider.
“Yes we have a black president, but all that means is that a bare majority of the population was willing to elect him to office – some despite their own animus towards blacks while another sizable majority hates him presumably for his policies and not his skin color.”
I hate him, not presumably but BECAUSE of his policies. Were many liberals that hated Bush racists or did they hate him because of his policies?
[quote]Of course you guys have all proven me correct. The answer is that you don’t want to discuss race in any real way.[/quote]
Wrong. WE want to discuss race in a real way, not irrelevantly and artificially inject racism into discussions that don’t have anything to do with race…
Frankly, it sounds as if you think about racism a great deal, perhaps so much so that it colors your thinking on everything. In other words you are always looking at incidents through racism-colored glasses. The problem with that way of thinking is that when there truly is racism to discuss, no one will be listening to you bc you have lost your credibility on the subject…
I’ve said this before – you really need to get out more, meaning out of Davis and out of this state. I come from the South, and I’ve seen the ugly face of racism at its worst. As a little girl I asked what the “Whites Only” signs meant at grocery stores. True racism isn’t pretty, and it isn’t exclusive to any one ethnicity. But it doesn’t exist in every scenario either…
[i]”The answer is that you don’t want to discuss race in any real way.”[/i]
When I hear “we need to have a discussion” about race, it always reminds me of when a sig-other says “we need to talk”. It usually means “you need to listen.”
Elaine
“I’ve said this before – you really need to get out more, meaning out of Davis and out of this state. I come from the South, and I’ve seen the ugly face of racism at its worst. As a little girl I asked what the “Whites Only” signs meant at grocery stores. True racism isn’t pretty, and it isn’t exclusive to any one ethnicity. But it doesn’t exist in every scenario either…”
I find an interesting parallel between this comment and one that Jeff Boone made on another thread. His comment was about Obama not being an overt but rather hidden “socialist” the latter being more dangerous and destructive.
While I agree with you that “true racism isn’t pretty and isn’t exclusive to any one ethnicity, I would agree with Jeff’s position that a covert tendency can be as if not more damaging than that which is out in the open.
I would like to reference my story about “helmet court” as an example of how our philosophy’s color how we see the world on both ends of the political spectrum. The experience I had from being there and observing directly led me to believe that some perceived social differential: dress, means of presentation, manner of speech, socioeconomic group, or race could have contributed to the judge’s differential treatment of the mother /son pair ahead of us and the much more civil way in which my son and I were addressed. Now, being an admitted liberal, I did entertain the thought that race could have played a role. I did not accuse, or state that I knew what he was thinking, I merely raised the question in a thread in which the race issue had already been raised.
This prompted several of you to write to me stating that you did not think it was valid to accuse of racial bias on the basis of this episode or proposing alternative explanations, without any suggestion that you understood why I could have been posing the question. When racial discussions arise, one of the main problems I have is the paucity of comments that express any kind of introspection or thought that perhaps, sometimes, this could be a factor regardless of the race of the person involved.
[quote]By all means, talk about/discuss race issues. But if you allege that only “whitey” can be guilty, I won’t listen,. [/quote][quote]Of course you guys have all proven me correct. The answer is that you don’t want to discuss race in any real way. [/quote]What am I missing? Unless the only REAL way to discuss racism is to take “whitey” to task? Racism exists, it is morally and pragmatically wrong (reprehensible), and in relation to many aspects of employment and other behaviors, illegal. Are you one of those folks who believe that only white christian people are capable of racism? Dr King knew better… I wept when he was killed… the next day, at school, a black kid punched me hard in the solar plexus because I was white… fortunately, our Vice Principal, who was black, quickly checked to see if I was OK, then upbraided the other kid as betraying Dr Kin’s message. There are many who feel the other kid was justified in his attack due to the “sins” of my race. Fortunately, Dr Dabney disagreed.
“Secondly, when making blanket statements about people’s ethnicity and how they “feel” about “racism”, it is insulting.”
If you are insulted by the mere discussion of some items, I would suggest you are too easily insulted.
loaded accusations and innuendo, casting aspersions on others is not merely a “discussion.” they are below the belt insults, and judjing by the majority of the comments, others think so too.
the vanguard is only showing its readers how quick it is to judge them personally without knowing them, which ironically is the main problem with racism in the first place.
I’m middle-aged; and I think racism is a bit worse now than when I was a kid
–people have been more encouraged to identify with their race and ethnic group, rather than as the tribe of American citizens.
–kids are taught how bad and racist the white folks have been in history; and to blame their problems on past and current perceived discrimination (some of which is real, some not)
–just about everyone, of all skin colors, is dealt a lot of knocks, blows, and insults by life; some people immediately attribute this bad treatment to racism when most often it is the same crap most people of any skin color has to put up with (I would submit the ones who have to put up with the most crap are poor people, of all skin colors).
–pretty much only a very narrow range of views on race relations are considered publicly acceptable; if you stray outside of this views if is likely someone will immediately brand you a racist–I would suggest this is why most people avoid the topic of racism
I acknowledge it is a tricky balance; on the one hand there is some real racism; on the other hand if it is exagerrated it just makes the problem worse, i.e. it perpetuates the problem.
I think many people are vested in the politics of racial identity. While we are all encouraged to identify ourselves by our race, ethnicity, religion, sex, sexual preference, etc. and squabble among ourselves; the rich continue to get richer and the poor of all colors to get poorer.
91 Octane
” loaded accusations and innuendo, casting aspersions on others is not merely a discussion, they are below the belt insults “
Kind of like when you asked me if I had spat on returning Viet Nam soldiers when my statement was with regard to my peaceful protest activities ?
91 Octane
I owe you a huge apology which I would like to make publicly.
It was not you, but AdRemmer who addressed the totally offensive question above to me. I am very sorry that
I falsely imputed it to you.
Blacks are over-represented in prison and have a higher percentage of harsher punishment than whites, this is evidence of racial bias in law enforcment and with the crimial justice system.
Asians are over-represented in higher learning and have a higher percentage of stronger GPAs… this must be evidence of racial bias with teachers and the education system.
[i]”I think many people are vested in the politics of racial identity.”[/i]
jimt, great post and great points. I agree.
In any community of people, individuals will filter to their closest tribe. It takes leadership to bring diverse people together to feel a belonging to a larger community with shared values and shared goals.
Black leadership is abismal… they foment black tribalsim and do nothing to lead them to feeling belonging to the larger community. As long as blacks demand their own identity and culture separate from just being Americans, they will struggle. They need new leadership. Obama has done nothing for them.
Obama does not dwell on his racial identity. That should make you happy. There are plenty of black community leaders, mayors, governors, and such who function just fine helping their communities without “fomenting black tribalism.” I assume you’re probably referring to the best-known civil rights activists who are often in the news. They are old news, and barely seem relevant anymore.
David, you mention two specific issues: police profiling and the achievement gap in schools. The problem with trying to have “a discussion” about those is that it isn’t very easy to get to any solutions.
The former is as much a perception issue as it is a policy issue. I assume that police are trained on sensitivity and profiling concerns. Other than having an ombudsman, and doing community outreach (which I believe this police chief has done), there isn’t much to be done about it.
As to the achievement gap, correlation is not causation. In your many blog posts on that topic, no solutions have been proposed that I think would yield better outcomes. There is only so much we, collectively through community organizations or through government, can do. Some might even say we shouldn’t try to address the achievement gap as a racial issue: just try to help all poorer-performing students, and you will by default help those who may be over-represented in certain ethnic minorities. I think it would be great to have more male teachers. Some might thing we need more minority teachers. But we can’t give a preference in hiring, and I don’t even know if we can give a preference in recruiting. So you only address a racial achievement gap in non-racial ways.
[i]”There are plenty of black community leaders, mayors, governors, and such who function just fine helping their communities without “fomenting black tribalism.”[/i]
Don – Can you name some? I can think of a few who are Republicans (and Bill Cosby) who are called “Oreos” (black on the outside, white on the inside) by those with influence in the black community. I can think of many more who stick with the same template of whites oppressing blacks. The media too… can we say “Duke Lacrosse Team”?
These leaders are not old news. They still have plenty of influence in the black community. They do what Obama does… blame others instead of looking internally and demanding responsibility for self.
The mayors of cities like Detroit, Sacramento, Shreveport, Philadelphia come to mind. They just do their jobs, dealing with grinding urban issues, and happen to be black.
As to the old warhorses, Jackson and Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Jr. gets more press than his father these days. And Al Sharpton is reduced to a cable talk gig. I can’t imagine why you might think either of them is influential to any degree. In fact, I don’t even know how one would measure their influence. I do know that conservatives seem pretty obsessed with them.
Yes, those are some good black mayors. Michael Nutter says the same things Bill Cosby has said. However, there are far too few of them.
But at the national level, what about Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters?… and the entire Congressional Black Caucus that refuses to allow any whites?
Sharpton is still quite influential and frequently advises the President.
What about all the Democrats in Congress that continue as apologists for black circumstances?
What about Henry Belafonte?
What about the media in general and bit players like the Davis Vanguard? David says that Republicans supported Cain because he was black and it made them feel better about themselves. He has insinuated and projected racial motives on the Davis police force, and the entire criminal justice system. There are thousands of people like David around.
I’d be very surprised if Al Sharpton “advises” the president in any meaningful way. Harry Belafonte is one of my favorite musicians. I consider his political positions as unimportant as Bono’s or Ted Nugent’s. Why would the Congressional Black Caucus allow any whites?
I really don’t get your points, Jeff. We’re post-racial now. Except you and David, apparently, can’t understand that. It’s the ideologues on the left and right that have the problem. The rest of us have moved on.
“But at the national level, what about Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters?”
That’s two people. You’ve specifically named a handful of people that you don’t like and generalized an entire population onto them.
“I really don’t get your points, Jeff. We’re post-racial now. Except you and David, apparently, can’t understand that.”
The problem is that we’re not post-racial and only white people actually believe that. The reason I think about race a lot is that I see it a lot -whether it is family or people I work with.
“David, you mention two specific issues: police profiling and the achievement gap in schools. The problem with trying to have “a discussion” about those is that it isn’t very easy to get to any solutions. “
I agree, they are not easy issues to solve. If they were easy, anyone could do it.
“I’ve said this before – you really need to get out more, meaning out of Davis and out of this state. “
You do realize I work every day outside of Davis?
[i]”You’ve specifically named a handful of people that you don’t like and generalized an entire population onto them.”[/i]
David, I do not “dislike them”. I don’t generalize about the entire population. I don’t give a hoot about a person’s skin color or racial origin. I think enough people in this country feel the same. What remains is a base level of ignorant people that will NEVER go away. It is the 90/10 rule… the last 10% of any problem will require 90% of the energy to solve. When you get to 90%, you have to ask “Is this good enough?” It is good enough. Blacks are not lynched. They can sit anywhere on the bus. They can attend any school and any event. They cannot be discriminated against for a job or a loan. They can do anything that any person owning lighter skin can do assuming they work hard enough, don’t make too many serious mistakes, and demonstrate enough self-determination.
The under and over-representation of blacks in society is caused by one thing and only one thing… it is the corruption of their individual self confidence by those that keep reminding them that each life challenge they face is unfair because the white man holds them down.
That is why I am fine labeling 16 year olds that demonstrate they don’t own enough concern about ongoing life impacts gang-attacking an innocent person on the street to steal. I think we need to label them as “thugs” (no matter what skin color or racial origin) and do well to inform them that there is ZERO tollerence for it because their lives could very well be destroyed because of it.
George Bush said it well. We destroy lives from “the soft bigotry of low expectations.” Bleeding hearts and race-baiting politicians do more to destroy lives than any of the 10% ignorant people they seem to be so obsessed about.
[quote]You do realize I work every day outside of Davis?[/quote]
Outside of the Sacto area, and outside the state. CA is not representative of the entire country, far from it. In fact I was talking two sales clerks yesterday, one from Utah and one who had lived in Saudi Arabia for a year. The lady from Saudi Arabia commented she was told there would be huge culture shock when she went to an Arab country. She said she was surprised that she assimilated fairly easily. The severe culture shock came when she moved to CA. Her words, not mine. Her friend from Utah piped up, and totally agreed. All three of us knew what you don’t – CA is quite different from other states, very insular in its thinking (always assuming it has the moral high ground), and very much out of step with the rest of the country. You would better understand this phenomenon if you had ever lived outside this state…
[quote]The problem is that we’re not post-racial and only white people actually believe that. The reason I think about race a lot is that I see it a lot -whether it is family or people I work with. [/quote]
There you go generalizing about “white” people and what they “think”. You have no idea what “whites” think; and “white” is a pejorative meaningless term. And as I pointed out and you concede, you constantly think in terms of race, looking through racism colored glasses, which (pardon my pun) colors your thinking on every discussion you involve yourself with. Thus you very well may ascribe motives of racism where none exist…
[quote]As to the achievement gap, correlation is not causation. In your many blog posts on that topic, no solutions have been proposed that I think would yield better outcomes. There is only so much we, collectively through community organizations or through government, can do. Some might even say we shouldn’t try to address the achievement gap as a racial issue: just try to help all poorer-performing students, and you will by default help those who may be over-represented in certain ethnic minorities. I think it would be great to have more male teachers. Some might think we need more minority teachers. But we can’t give a preference in hiring, and I don’t even know if we can give a preference in recruiting. So you only address a racial achievement gap in non-racial ways.[/quote]
Well said! As a former teacher, I can tell you poor educational outcomes have more to do with lousy teachers/administrators/parents than it has to do with institutional racism…
[quote]What about the media in general and bit players like the Davis Vanguard? David says that Republicans supported Cain because he was black and it made them feel better about themselves. He has insinuated and projected racial motives on the Davis police force, and the entire criminal justice system. There are thousands of people like David around. [/quote]
This is very typical CA thinking: that racism is involved in every situation, and CA is so much more forward thinking than the rest of the country on this issue…
Don: [i]”I really don’t get your points, Jeff. We’re post-racial now. Except you and David, apparently, can’t understand that. It’s the ideologues on the left and right that have the problem. The rest of us have moved on.”[/i]
You are correct Don, you don’t get my points.
There is some parallel universe out there where the media and people like David and Al Sharpton live that is completely foreign to me. I go to work and school with people of all skin tones, racial origins and sexual orientations and nobody cares about anything of it. Then we read the paper and watch TV and see that the media and others are still stuck in a pre-civil rights mindset seeing everything through race-tinted glasses.
My comments stem from my perspective about the root causes for blacks being under or over-represented in society. It starts and ends with each individual person’s mindset and behavior. That is all that matters.
[quote]This prompted several of you to write to me stating that you did not think it was valid to accuse of racial bias on the basis of this episode or proposing alternative explanations, without any suggestion that you understood why I could have been posing the question. When racial discussions arise, one of the main problems I have is the paucity of comments that express any kind of introspection or thought that perhaps, sometimes, this could be a factor regardless of the race of the person involved.[/quote]
The problem I had w your example of “helmet court” is that you ASSUMED racism was the cause of the judge’s reaction, without really knowing that at all and without any basis whatever for such an assumption. Think about it – people poorly dressed are usually treated worse than the well dressed. Why do you think being well dressed is a prerequisite for going into a job interview? There could have been any number of reasons for the judge’s reaction, including the kid having come before the judge before, the judge was in a bad mood from the previous case, the kid/mom did not look contrite enough, etc.
By the way, don’t even get me started about what I think of “helmet court”!
ps to Elaine: Utah is quite different from other states, too….
Elaine: I have spent a significant portion of my life in the Midwest and the East Coast. I’m not exactly sure of your point and how being in Missouri or Northern Virginia is going to alter my perception. I also recall the reaction that Cecilia got in 2008 walking precincts in rural Nevada, which might as well have been the deep south.
If California is different from other states, I suspect that would make the overall problem of race worse not better.
“There you go generalizing about “white” people and what they “think”. You have no idea what “whites” think; and “white” is a pejorative meaningless term. “
We have a good idea of how people think, it’s called polling. I understand that polling does not capture data at the individual level, but it gives us a pretty good idea of things.
“There is some parallel universe out there where the media and people like David and Al Sharpton live that is completely foreign to me. I go to work and school with people of all skin tones, racial origins and sexual orientations and nobody cares about anything of it. Then we read the paper and watch TV and see that the media and others are still stuck in a pre-civil rights mindset seeing everything through race-tinted glasses. “
It is not a parallel universe, it’s just world outside of your current view and experiences. Things are very different from the pre-civil rights days, as I wrote in this article overt racial animus is almost gone. What remains are stereotypes (which you defend using statistics) and institutions that have endured. The world of Davis is very different through the eyes of a person of color.
Elaine,
Apparently you did not read my post but only homed in on what you thought a “liberal” would think.
I made no assumption whatsoever, I enquired about whether or not there could have been a connection between any of a number of possibilites, including dress, demeanor, perceived social status,race, and some completely non related issues including bordom with his usual speech, appreciation of my son’s and or my appearance or manner of speech. It seems to me that perhaps some of you think it is not valid to even question whether or not race could be an issue. That seems to me to perhaps be a little telling about unwillingness to consider points of view other than one’s own.
In my experience, it is naive to think race is never an issue… I believe it is equally naive, and probably racist to think that race is generally and/or always an issue.
[i]”The world of Davis is very different through the eyes of a person of color.”[/i]
David, I still find statements like this hard to believe. Again, it seems to me to be some parallel universe.
What exactly happens to your friends and acquaintances that cause them to see Davis so differently? Are these all students you are talking about; or are they all lower income residents? Are they young people dressed like gang bangers driving around town playing rap with giant subwoofer speakers? Are you primarily referring to treatment by law enforcement or are there other types of encounters that are evidence of this dark side of Davis you seem so sure of? Give me some examples so I can get a picture of the racism you see.
When I look around at the vast diversity of people all chatting as friends at our neighborhood block party, it seems that all is right and relevant in our city of inclusion, acceptance and political correctness.
Your claims just don’t jibe with my 30+ years of experience living here, so I need a little help.
[i]What remains are stereotypes (which you defend using statistics) and institutions that have endured.[/i]
Statists are not evidence of racism or racial bias… they are just statistics. Are you advocating doing away with statistics for concern that someone of color may be offended by them? That must be the problem with being color blind… you try to treat everyone with the same respect of honesty and openness, but then apparently you offend some groups of people doing so.
You see, I completely get the slap of not feeling like I belong. I have been there, done that. You don’t need different color skin for that… you just need to be perceived as being different. At that point you have two choices: let it beat you down and become bitter and resentful; or learn to respect yourself, work your ass off taking advantage of the fact that in this country achievement generally overcomes all petty obstacles.
“What exactly happens to your friends and acquaintances that cause them to see Davis so differently? Are these all students you are talking about; or are they all lower income residents? Are they young people dressed like gang bangers driving around town playing rap with giant subwoofer speakers? Are you primarily referring to treatment by law enforcement or are there other types of encounters that are evidence of this dark side of Davis you seem so sure of? Give me some examples so I can get a picture of the racism you see. “
I find it interesting that you immediately jump to stereotypes – are they dressed like gang bangers driving around town playing rap with giant subwoofer speakers. You know what they are dressed like – college students. Most of them have older make cars but they are in decent condition, UCD stickers, and they get pulled over dozens of times. I once had an expired registration on my car, drove through town quite frequently at all hours and never got pulled over once.
That’s great that people of vast diversity get along in your neighborhood at block parties, that’s not what I’m talking about. I lived in Davis for a long time and never saw it until I walked through town with people of color, even my little nieces and nephews who are black, and it was different. I can’t sit here and give you a vivid description of it, but there was a different feel to the community.
“Statists are not evidence of racism or racial bias… they are just statistics. Are you advocating doing away with statistics for concern that someone of color may be offended by them? “
How come it is, that when controlling for the nature of the crime and criminal history, a black person gets a higher sentence on average than a white person? How come when the victim is white versus black, regardless of the race of perp, the white victim’s crime is punished more severely, again controlling for criminal history and circumstances? Why is it that crack and cocaine, which are essentially the same substance are punished so disparately, even after the reforms of last year? Simple possession of crack, primarily used by blacks was punished with a sentence 27 times longer than simple possession of the same amount of cocaine. After last year it’s 10 times. Still don’t understand the achievement gap, and why it is the son of a white college educated person does so much better than the son of a black college educated person, other SES characteristics held equal.
“I completely get the slap of not feeling like I belong. I have been there, done that. You don’t need different color skin for that… you just need to be perceived as being different. “
The difference is that when you’re skin color is different, it is something that is omnipresent and you can never escape. Some people handle it better than others of course. Everyone’s different.
“work your ass off taking advantage of the fact that in this country achievement generally overcomes all petty obstacles. “
I guess you can view it this way. For a lot of people just working their ass off only gets them to survive, and certainly not overcome all petty obstacles. Then again, I never had to work in the fields from dawn till dusk to put a few bucks on the table and survive. There are millions of people who work their butts off and don’t get anything more than a meager existence for it.
David: Thanks for the detailed post. It helps me understand more of your perspective on this important topic. I will respond later today (having my financial audit this week, so I am a bit busier than normal). Of course, I have some thoughts in response.
[quote]ps to Elaine: Utah is quite different from other states, too….[/quote]
LOL Right you are!
[quote]We have a good idea of how people think, it’s called polling. I understand that polling does not capture data at the individual level, but it gives us a pretty good idea of things.[/quote]
There is your problem right there – basing opinion on polling. Polling IMO is notoriously inaccurate, and largely depends on how the questions are asked, what questions are asked, how people are chosen who participate in the polls…
[quote]What remains are stereotypes (which you defend using statistics) and institutions that have endured. The world of Davis is very different through the eyes of a person of color.[/quote]
No one is denying racism exists (I have even been the victim of racism believe it or not!). It just doesn’t exist in EVERY SITUATION!
[quote]I made no assumption whatsoever, I enquired about whether or not there could have been a connection between any of a number of possibilites, including dress, demeanor, perceived social status,race, and some completely non related issues including bordom with his usual speech, appreciation of my son’s and or my appearance or manner of speech. [/quote]
Point well taken. I suspect I had forgotten precisely what you had said bc the discussion by that time had gone pretty far afield. My mistake!
[quote]I can’t sit here and give you a vivid description of it, but there was a different feel to the community. [/quote]
If you can’t describe any specific evidence of overt racism, then perhaps the problem is more your “feeling” that way than there actually being any actual racism. In general, I would say Davis is fairly benign. I have been in towns that were far from it when it came to racism. You want a really creepy feeling? Go to Placerville sometime in the off season. That should make the chills run down your spine – and it has nothing to do with race per se, but if I were a person of color, I wouldn’t advise going there. Or go to the Eastern Shore of MD, where it doesn’t matter what color you are, you are an outsider and gaped at. Go into any inner city neighborhood of African-Americans, and as a white person see how you feel. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is racism going on…
Yet racism very much exists. When I first came to CA, I walked into a fast food place at Arden Fair Mall. A Caucasian father was talking to his little 5-6 year old daughter. As an African-American family walked by, he instructed his daughter how evil those black people were (I’m cleaning up his language – what he said was extremely vile and hateful). I honestly didn’t know what to do. I wanted to say something, but my fear was if I did, it would only precipitate a scene and make matters worse rather than help. THAT WAS DEFINITELY OVERT RACISM…
[i]”A Caucasian father was talking to his little 5-6 year old daughter. As an African-American family walked by, he instructed his daughter how evil those black people were (I’m cleaning up his language – what he said was extremely vile and hateful).”[/i]
Racism = ignorance. Unless someone has a magic bullet for eliminating all forms of ignorance, we will always have a percentage of people who are racist… just like we will always have a percentage of people that are biased against Jewish people, heavy people, short people, and people with red hair. At some point, doesn’t the rate of occurrence fall low enough to allow us to drop concerns of racial bias from the list of social problems that warrant so much attention? Frankly, I think people that keep lowering the bar for what defines acts of racism (“having a different feel to the community”) do more to perpetuate the real rate of occurrence by constantly reminding everyone that race matters.
Related to Elaine’s point. I have a small second home in Chester CA. It is a small town where everyone knows each other. The town is 95% white. My wife and two sons walked to the High School to watch a football game underway. As we came in to the front of the bleachers, it seemed like every head turned toward us and it got noticeably quiet. We were outsiders and the people in the stands were just curious. Now, if we were a black family, might we have attributed the stares to racism?
David: [i]”I find it interesting that you immediately jump to stereotypes”[/i]
What stereo-types… you mean the loud ones with booming subwoofers? =) Seriously though, I wasn’t attributing this to any particular race since kids of all races do it… emulate gang banger culture. It just begged the question since the behavior would probably draw extra attention from the cops no matter what race.
David: [i]”I can’t sit here and give you a vivid description of it, but there was a different feel to the community.”[/i]
In my book, claiming some person or some entity (The City of Davis, The Davis Police Department) is racist demands you establish substantially more evidence that “different feel”. The left has won the political correctness war and has established clear rules for preventing things that are offensive to others. If we can’t have Christmas trees in public spaces for fear of offending Muslims or Buddhists, then we certainly should not allow the use of the term “racist” without strong justification for fear of offending almost everyone.
David: “[i]How come it is, that when controlling for the nature of the crime and criminal history, a black person gets a higher sentence on average than a white person? How come when the victim is white versus black, regardless of the race of perp, the white victim’s crime is punished more severely, again controlling for criminal history and circumstances?”[/i]
I do not know, but I suspect there are plenty of reasonable reasons other than racism. For example: blacks are over-represented as poor and hence cannot afford the level of legal defense talent that whites can. Blacks are over-represented in low literacy and cannot as effectively advocate for themselves in criminal trials. Blacks lack the level of family support that would give a court the same level of confidence as for whites that criminal behavior would stop with a less harsh sentence. When controlled for ALL variables other than just the race of the perp, I suspect there would be very little difference.
David: [i]”Why is it that crack and cocaine, which are essentially the same substance are punished so disparately, even after the reforms of last year? Simple possession of crack, primarily used by blacks was punished with a sentence 27 times longer than simple possession of the same amount of cocaine. After last year it’s 10 times.”[/i]
Probably because Judges, Juries and DA’s are more familiar with cocaine than crack. Cocaine is perceived as a cleaner, wealthy person’s drug and crack is a dirty ghetto drug. Blame the media for that perception difference (remember, perceptions are reality). In any case, how do you take a comparison of punishment for two different drugs and turn it into a racism claim? This is an example of where you seem to start with a racism template and then look for things to fill it. How about comparing whites and blacks charged and tried on similar charges for the same drug?
David: [i]”Still don’t understand the achievement gap, and why it is the son of a white college educated person does so much better than the son of a black college educated person, other SES characteristics held equal.”[/i]
I think it has little to do with racism and much more to do with those around him claiming racism. Given the mindset of racism, the black student can more easily blame adversity and struggle on it. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy as drops in spirit and motivation cause him to stall while others continue on… making it that more difficult for him to catch up if and when he stops making excuses and stops feeling sorry for himself.
David: [i]”The difference is that when you’re skin color is different, it is something that is omnipresent and you can never escape. Some people handle it better than others of course. Everyone’s different.“[/i]
That feels like a slap too because you are marginalizing my omnipresent characteristics that I cannot escape either.
Some people may be blessed to handle it better, but these are things that almost everyone can learn. Teach them that everyone is different and to find and celebrate theirs. Teach them to find their strengths and leverage them; to find their weaknesses and strive to improve or compensate for them; to learn to love themselves and have confidence in themselves and never stop striving for better things. Tell them that cops are human and have a difficult job, but to be understanding, polite, respectful and helpful and the likelihood is that the cops will do the same in return… but they might run into a rude one every now and then.
David: [i]” For a lot of people just working their ass off only gets them to survive, and certainly not overcome all petty obstacles.
Then it is likely something in their history, or in their head that is causing them to not advance up the ladder of prosperity… it is not the white man holding them down.
David: [i]”Then again, I never had to work in the fields from dawn till dusk to put a few bucks on the table and survive.”[/i]
I did when I was younger.
“Polling IMO is notoriously inaccurate”
I disagree that polling is notoriously inaccurate. There are limitations. But the biggest problem with polling is that people’s views are fairly transient. However, with regard to long term attitudes, that’s really a non-issue.
” It just doesn’t exist in EVERY SITUATION!”
I agree.
“Frankly, I think people that keep lowering the bar for what defines acts of racism (“having a different feel to the community”) do more to perpetuate the real rate of occurrence by constantly reminding everyone that race matters.”
I know you’ll disagree, but I think that is a good thing – it’s a sign of progress. Racism fifty years ago was hatred, discrimination, segregation. Now it is differential treatment and unequal opportunities.
“What stereo-types… you mean the loud ones with booming subwoofers? =) Seriously though, I wasn’t attributing this to any particular race since kids of all races do it… emulate gang banger culture. It just begged the question since the behavior would probably draw extra attention from the cops no matter what race.”
Most of the people who have described what has happened are not doing that, so I think that can be eliminated as an excuse.
“In my book, claiming some person or some entity (The City of Davis, The Davis Police Department) is racist demands you establish substantially more evidence that “different feel”.”
I agree. I’m not convinced that either are “racist” what I do think happens is that people are treated differently on the basis of their skin color.
“For example: blacks are over-represented as poor and hence cannot afford the level of legal defense talent that whites can. Blacks are over-represented in low literacy and cannot as effectively advocate for themselves in criminal trials. “
See you are missing the point. There are statistical methods that eliminate these possibilities. We’ve already controlled for all of that by holding SES constant across races. Why would we do that? Because even an amateur analyst can point to those problems.
“When controlled for ALL variables other than just the race of the perp, I suspect there would be very little difference. “
No, you are completely wrong. These differences exist AFTER all other variables are controlled for.
“Probably because Judges, Juries and DA’s are more familiar with cocaine than crack.”
NO. It has nothing to do with judges, juries, and DA’s. It is how the federal statute was written back in the mid-80s by Congress.
Jeff
“How about comparing whites and blacks charged and tried on similar charges for the same drug”
That is exactly the point. These are the same drug. Cocaine, whether in the form of crack or powder, is still cocaine. It is “the same drug”.
And you are also correct about this statement “Cocaine is perceived as a cleaner, wealthy person’s drug and crack is a dirty ghetto drug.”
So Jeff, who lives in ghettos? Poor people yes, but undeniably disproportionately minorities. And who, disproportionately are the wealthy and thus perceived as “clean”. Now sure, you can fall back on the exception, the celebrity, or minority athlete, but that is not the majority in this country.
I think this gets back to the different point of view that you and David have about “lowering the bar” for what is considered racist. I personally would like to see it lowered to the point where racism does not exist at all. This would entail doing something that you seem to be adverse to, holding ourselves as individuals and as a society to an ongoing process of introspection. Could the behavior we are manifesting have an element of racism, or sexism, or be based on religion or some other discriminatory process ? And if so, how to best address it.
I would like to share an example from my own field, medicine. During my internship and residency in the mid 80s, it was still unusual for gynecologists to be women. Some of the older doctors still did not believe that women should be doctors. Some women refused to see a woman
because they did not believe that women ” thought logically enough to be doctors”. They were wrong. Much has changed. Now gynecology has become a female dominated profession. Many women now insist on seeing a female gynecologist because they believe that men ” cannot understand their problems or will not be as compassionate”. Equally wrong. And now I find myself, having to have fought for my position in the field,in the ironic position of now having to convince women to see a male partner whose skills in a particular area are superior to mine or to argue for at least an attempt to balance the number of equally qualified men as well as women in the profession.
There are two human situations that we perceive immediately upon seeing another human being. Skin color, and gender ( assuming no deliberate attempt has been made to confuse the issue). These are universal human perceptions. We cannot help but notice. But we can choose to look inside, self monitor, and constantly reasses how we feel about those instantaneous and subconscious judgements that we attach to those perceptions. This is not something we can blame on the media, or politicians we do not like, or professors whose ideology we do not agree with.
This is about our own perceptions, beliefs and judgements and applies equally to both sexes and all skin tones. It would be disingenuous to pretend that any one is exempt. It would also be disengenuous to pretend that historically and presently, whites ( and to , in my opinion,a lesser degree, men ) do not have the upper hand economically and socially in this country.
Medwoman & David Greenwald:
I think you both have great intentions, but I also think you both are unwittingly contributing to the very problems you agitate to solve. I am no credentialed social/cultural scientist, but it seems you are not very understanding of the natural tendencies of human behavior. More specifically, I don’t think you understand the mechanics of tribalism and its effects on individuals and societies.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism#Tribalism_and_evolution[/url]
People not feeling included in the larger American tribe only need to work harder at assimilation. The only REAL problem we face today is poor economic growth. People are unhappy and looking for external reasons, someone else to blame… and demanding others change. As is usually the case, they don’t not easily blame, or change, themselves… even though this is their only true salvation.
s/b “they do not easily blame, or change, themselves
Jeff: I’m more than a bit concerned that your opinions are based on a pretty poor understanding of proper statistical analysis.
For instance you chalk up differences in sentencing and imprisonment rate to factors that have already been controlled for by trained and careful researchers and have little response when this is pointed out.
You discuss judges, juries, and DAs in the context of crack-cocaine disparities that are in fact statutory and then have no reaspon when this error is pointed out.
You dismiss other research so racial discrepancies in the achievement gap statistics stating, “I think it has little to do with racism and much more to do with those around him claiming racism.” You may think that, but you have likely never researched it.
Your only rejoinder is in fact: “I think you both have great intentions, but I also think you both are unwittingly contributing to the very problems you agitate to solve.” But it appears to me that you are simply ignoring unpleasant facts that happen to conflict with your worldview that I think is – no offense is intended here – is rather limited.
[quote]Many women now insist on seeing a female gynecologist because they believe that men ” cannot understand their problems or will not be as compassionate”. Equally wrong. [/quote]
Actually I think you are wrong in assuming male doctors are necessarily as compassionate in regard to female problems as female doctors. Too often in my life I have hit upon male doctors who seem to think my symptoms are all “in my mind” (and as it has turned out were completely WRONG). Now when that happens I have changed doctors.
[quote]There are statistical methods that eliminate these possibilities. We’ve already controlled for all of that by holding SES constant across races. Why would we do that? Because even an amateur analyst can point to those problems. [/quote]
Unlike you, I don’t trust statistics, and I do not believe they are infallible no matter how “carefully” done…
Nothing is infallible but controlling for SES is not rocket science either.
The problem with derived statistics is that they are often used to support an agenda and the strength of the argument based on derived statistics is directly attributable to the level of research funding.
There is simply much more money being spent to derive statistics that support an agenda to prove that America as designed sucks, and that white men suck, and that all other protected groups are mistreated by both.
How do you people that continue to see the world through race-tinted glasses explain people like Barack Obama and Herman Cain? How did they both manage to escape the oppression, the racism in education, the racism in law enforcement and our judicial system that you are sure exists at materially relevant levels? What about all the other middle class and wealthy blacks and other minorities? Are they just statistical anomalies… inconvenient irritations to your desired template of rampant racial bias?
We are in a post-racial society. Please go find a new cause. This one is useless and stale.
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390205/Whites-suffer-racism-blacks-Study-shows-white-people-believe-discriminated-against.html[/url]
Thank you all for an honest and heartening discussion . As a working musician since the age of 15, I have spent many hours with bandmates talking frankly about race and racism . It is not always easy or comfortable, but for me it has been profoundly rewarding .
[i]”Too often in my life I have hit upon male doctors who seem to think my symptoms are all “in my mind”[/i]
The other catch-all is “stress”.
Doctors are problem-solvers and I think some of them do not like not like failing to find a solution, so they gravitate to these catch-all causes of emotional and mental status, and stress.
Working in the IT industry being reponsible for solving computer hardware and software problems, I often thought about how nice it would be to blame the problem on these things when I was having no luck finding easy solutions to problems. However, I knew that would risk me being hit over the head with a keyboard.
“The problem with derived statistics is that they are often used to support an agenda and the strength of the argument based on derived statistics is directly attributable to the level of research funding.”
That’s really a misunderstanding both of how statistically are properly used and how the peer review process works. I also believe you are operating under preconceived hypotheticals rather than actual examples that occur in research.
David: [i]”I also believe you are operating under preconceived hypotheticals rather than actual examples that occur in research.”[/i]
There are huge gaps in the type of research done to explain statistical differences. For example, why are blacks over-represented in athletics?
One theory that has been suggested… that blacks produce more testosterone, a hormone that is known to be responsible for aggressive behavior. However, the politics of this type of study offend the political correctness crowd who worry about real science eroding their political power and grant money derived from their white on black racism template. Check it out… see how much research you can find on this theory. Very little other than a few articles confirming higher testosterone and estrogen levels in blacks from a few minor studies. If this is the case, might that not contribute to the picture of cause for higher incarceration rates? I know… you will say that your statistics control for EVERYTHING and therefore NOTHING ELSE can possibly explain the under and over representation except WHITE RACISM AGAINST MINORITIES.
Regardless, yes, I am more apt to believe my own observations and experience even when it is in conflict with the intelligista. I think we stop paying attention to common sense at our own peril.
I have strong opinions about most things, but I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong. One day maybe I will visit your parallel universe and be surprised witnessing or experiencing all this racial bias against minorities you claim to see. Until then I will continue to think you are prone to making racial mountains out of ant hills… and that doing this causes more harm than good the very people you think you are helping.
One thing you and other racism-template people have not answered… why are Asians not over represented in poor school outcomes and prison? What do the statistics say about that?
Jeff:
I’m not sure of your point or what it has to do with what we’ve primarily been discussing. I’ll suggest that what you are looking at is mainly an issue of biology though probably more the interaction between biology and socio-cultural factors – different groups emphasize different things. That said I don’t think it has much to do with racism, other than perhaps your suggestion about the lack of research into that area.
“I am more apt to believe my own observations and experience even when it is in conflict with the intelligista. “
Problem with relying on your own observations is that they are limited and you lack the ability to analyze in a systematic manner. Data are really the plural of observations – multiple observations are subsumed in a dataset. Your own observations are filtered both through biaes, prejudice, noise, and memory issues.
“why are Asians not over represented in poor school outcomes and prison?”
There are some interesting answers to that. First, not all Asians are the same. So people from the poorer Asian countries actually do remarkably less well than people from richer Asian countries. Part of that is that many Asians have strong networks that act as support networks. The other part is that most of the Asians that come to this country come from well educated families and they perform like the children of other well-educated families. Whereas if you looke at Laotians, Hmong, Cambodians, and even Vietnamese and Indonesians, they all have very high poverty levels in this country. Overall, the Asian poverty rate in this country is higher than that of whites and in major cities is nearly twice that of whites. But we don’t hear these stories very often, because we see the performance of middle class Asians who have come to this country to take advantage of our public university system and we think they are the rule.
So the answer to your question is statistics tell us that what you have described is largely a myth that you again never bothered to research very closely.
David, There are a lot of holes in your explanation as to why Asians are not over or under represented. I also detect a bit of racism in your comment that they tend to be better educated and have stronger support networks. Regardless, this argument has no connection with your original claim that Davis and other places treat blacks unfairly and with bias. So why don’t they treat Asians unfairly and with similar bias?
Let’s just skip the first generation immigrants then and focus on subsequent generations.
Also, your point about not all Asians being the same sounds a bit racist to me since you are inferring that all blacks are. Are all whites the same too? Last I checked both whites and blacks come from many different places on the globe.
I think you are fleeing from the obvious problems that this comparison presents you.
Here is analogy for you. Say I have an employee with high potential but low confidence and a bit of a chip on her shoulder. I work with her explaining the performance expectations, encouraging her and being honest about her capabilities and challenges. We meet frequently. She struggles with interpersonal conflict because she developed an attitude about other people. Her home life seems to model and encourage the wrong stuff which she brings to work. We keep working on it. A few times during this more intense professional development we discuss that she is at risk of losing her job; that she needs to change her perspective about her professional role and life. I tell her I am always here to help, to listen, to give advice and to help her succeed… but that she has to perform and there is time limit for her to “get it”.
She was one of my past employees… one of many that came in all shapes and sizes and colors. She happened to be black and was from Stockton and was from a messed up family filled with too many single moms, missing dads, other male relatives in jail and continued drug-related activity. She ultimately was very successful. Last I heard she finished her RN education and became an executive for a healthcare company in Texas. I think if she had it in her head that race had any part in my having to put her on performance warning, she would have given up.
Please stop telling people their problems are because of racism unless you have very clear evidence, because you can cause them to grow a chip and then give up. The fear of you and others causing people to grow a chip and give up is the reason I am spending so much time on this topic. It is important.
Jeff:
“There are a lot of holes in your explanation as to why Asians are not over or under represented. “
That’s likely due to the fact that I responded in a paragraph rather than an essay or book.
” I also detect a bit of racism in your comment that they tend to be better educated and have stronger support networks. “
Not at all. The biggest determinant of success for anyone is education level of the parents. Asian immigrants from China or Japan and Korea are different from other Asian immigrants as well as most immigrants who come here fleeing poverty.
“Regardless, this argument has no connection with your original claim that Davis and other places treat blacks unfairly and with bias. So why don’t they treat Asians unfairly and with similar bias?”
They do. However, as you’ve oversimplified my argument about the treatment of blacks in this community, you also oversimplify the treatment of Asians.
“Let’s just skip the first generation immigrants then and focus on subsequent generations.”
I don’t really believe you can do that but let’s see where you go…
“Also, your point about not all Asians being the same sounds a bit racist to me since you are inferring that all blacks are. “
I have no idea what your point is here. Nor do I really understand the point of your long analogy. You argued that Asians have been more successful here than other minorities. I used statistical evidence to demonstrate that you have painted a misleading picture of Asians, first by assuming that all Asians are high performing and second by ignoring the fact that Southern Asians actually have less in common with those who can from China, Japan, and Korea and more in common with other immigrants. You never even address this point, instead make a vague reference to racism and an even vaguer reference to some mythical employee from Stockton.
“Please stop telling people their problems are because of racism unless you have very clear evidence, because you can cause them to grow a chip and then give up. “
I must be pretty powerful… Nevertheless, I don’t have to do much work to establish racism. So we had this thing called slavery up until we fought a civil war. After the North beat the South, the North imposed Reconstruction on the South. But the South resented that and created a bifurcated system where blacks and whites were treated separate but completely unequal despite the US Supreme Court’s insistence on Separate but evil. That system remained in place largely until the 1950s, there was then a period where segregation laws were abolished.
Coming out of that period, there was a tremendous inequality between whites and blacks. While blacks have gained legal rights, the process has been slow and that gap has never really closed. Given that, the problems that exist for blacks in this country are a clear result of past racist policies by local governments with a wink and nod from the federal government.
While most people in this society clearly eschew overt racism, institutions built on racism remain and people continue to harbor negative stereotypes about a variety of races, including blacks.
Does acknowledging the realities of this history and this present lead to “people to grow a chip and give up” – no I think the opposite is true, the failure by people like you and indeed most white middle citizens to acknowledge such problems is probably closer to the core of the problem. As I said in my essay – whites people are the only ones who really believe racism is a thing of the past.
Elaine
“Actually I think you are wrong in assuming male doctors are necessarily as compassionate in regard to female problems as female doctors. Too often in my life I have hit upon male doctors who seem to think my symptoms are all “in my mind” (and as it has turned out were completely WRONG). Now when that happens I have changed doctors.
I am making no claim that all male doctors are as compassionate as female doctors. What I do know from my acquaintences with hundreds of gynecologists ( I have worked in extremely large groups and have been active regionally) is that neither gender has the upper hand on compassion. I have known extremely compassionate male physicians, and extremely cold, uncaring females. What can be said is that male physicians will never know what the sensations of having a period, or being pregnant, or going through the menopause are. But the same could be said for women who have not been pregnant, or not yet experienced the menopause. One does not have to have had the same experience to demonstrate compassion, and having had the same experience does not guarantee that one will feel or convey more compassion.
Through the years, I have heard that “all in her head ” comment from as many women doctors as men.
This is the heart of prejudice. The assumption that because a person is physiologically more similar to us, they will behave in a fashion more agreeable to us. And I agree with you that the “all in your head” comment (unless specifically addressing the issue of neurotransitters)
Should be the cue to find another doctor, of either gender.
Jeff
“I think you both have great intentions, but I also think you both are unwittingly contributing to the very problems you agitate to solve. I am no credentialed social/cultural scientist, but it seems you are not very understanding of the natural tendencies of human behavior. More specifically, I don’t think you understand the mechanics of tribalism and its effects on individuals and societies.
You are completely entitled to your opinions. As a credentialed social/cultural scientist (BA with anthropology and political science majors and a minor in sociology) unbrainwashed by liberal professors since my early encounter with Ayn Rand placed my personal politics far to the left of most of them, some of whom were firm defenders of her view, I am entitled to disagree.
I have learned enough about tribalism to understand that it is fundamentally an “us vs them” phenomenon. So it is exactly that view point that I hear when you make statements that imply that assimilation into your understanding of American culture is what is needed for success.
What I would say is that “American culture” is much fuller, richer, and more complex and diverse than the culture that you claim as the norm. In my opinion, many of the difficulties faced by our society are based on individual unwillingness to accept change within the overall culture and continue to insist that their belief system is superior.
You have asked David for some concrete examples of racism. Since you seem to value personal experience and common sense over studies and statistics, I will limit myself to examples I myself have heard or experienced.
1) You don’t need that “derogatory name for individual of Afro American descent”. You can do better than that.” Called out to a blonde friend of mine strolling with her black boyfriend by some white males.
2) Go home you “derogatory term for a middle easterner with reference to a specific form of head covering” spoken to my Turkish now ex- husband by a Hispanic female.
3) A specific exchange in Oakland with a young man obviously trying to protect me. On my way home from the Bay area one evening, I made a wrong turn, got lost, and finding myself low on gas, pulled off into a neighborhood next to the freeway. I started to get out of the car at a gas station to pay and ask directions, when the young, Hispanic attendant ran out to my car saying “Stay in the car, stay in the car.” The next thing he said was “boy are you ever in the wrong neighborhood” , ” lost aren’t you?” When I agreed that was my situation, he pumped my gas ( right beneath the self service only sign) gave me directions and closed our conversation with ” keep you doors locked, your windows up, and don’t stop for anyone”. Now are there alternative explanations other than race ? Of course. Maybe he was simply paranoid. Maybe he had knowledge of a completely non racially based crime spree in progress. Maybe he liked scaring random passing motorists. But my experience of the event suggested that might skin color may have been involved. Lest any of you think I was somehow emanating ” rich doctor, easy target” I was dressed in jeans and a tee shirt and driving a non restored 70’s era Volvo at the time.
4) Words from my own stepfather on a chance encounter with a blonde woman and her two mixed race children in a grocery store ” would you look at that, two ” very derogatory term for children of African American descent ” with her…” spoken loudly and with obvious comtempt.
I am sorry Jeff, but just because you have mixed race block parties does not mean that there is not racism, both overt and covert in our society.
It is however not limited to whites. I believe that the ” us vs them” is a universal human tendency that can be overcome by introspection, awareness of the issue and a willingness to change, starting with ourselves first and working outwards. What I do not think will help is denial, or placing the blame on those who are willing to admit that racism still exists and to challenge it when encountered.
Theories of causation for black over-representation in crime and punishment (from Wikipedia):
[quote] As noted above, scholars acknowledge that some racial and ethnic minorities, particularly African Americans, are disproportionately represented in the arrest and victimization reports which are used to compile crime rate statistics in the United States. The data from 2008 reveals that, though White Americans constituted the vast majority of total arrests made, African Americans were disproportionately represented in all forms of violent crime and property crime, as well as in the three measured forms of white-collar crime, with the average rates of representation 2 to 3 times higher than African American representation in the general population.[37] Such disparities become greater if calculating crimes per person for different races since overrepresentation for one group also means underrepresentation for other groups. The issue of disproportional minority representation in crime rate statistics has thus become a source of debate and controversy.
While most criminologists have traditionally assumed that disproportional representation in crime rate statistics is an indication of disproportional participation in criminal behavior,[38] prominent specialists in the field of race and crime studies have voiced concern over such an assumption. Pointing to the limitations generally recognized as inherent in the UCR and NCVS systems, scholars note that the crime rate statistics derived from them may be misleading.[39] In particular, the racial demographics of crime rate statistics may be tainted or made otherwise unreliable through recognized ambiguities in racial categorization,[40] through misreporting due to personal bias or prejudice,[41] through error in calculation due to local police recording practices,[42] or through bias in the criminal justice system itself.[43]
Defenders of the relative accuracy and reliability of the racial demographic component of crime statistics in the US point to international crime statistics showing remarkably similar results. INTERPOL statistics on homicide, forcible rape and aggravated assault from the years 1984-1996 are reported to show the same racial disproportionality, with Asian and White populations rating consistently lower than Black populations. In 1996, the rates per 100,000 were estimated at 35 for Asians, 42 for Whites and 149 for Blacks, yielding a Black rate more than 3 times the Asian or White rate.[44] See also the Race and crime article.
Regardless of their arguable accuracy, public focus on the disproportionate representation of minorities in violent crime rate statistics has led to both the general racialization of the discussion regarding crime[45] as well as to the emergence of a racial stereotype which characterizes young African American men as “inherently more sinister, evil and dangerous” than the young men of other racial groups, which Katheryn Russell-Brown has dubbed the “criminal black man” stereotype.[46] Research conducted over the last two decades on the public perceptions of crime reveals that 54% of surveyed White Americans believe that African Americans are more prone to violent behavior.[/quote]
[quote]However, this perception of African Americans as inherently violent is not limited to the White segment of the population: the National Race and Politics Survey of 1991 recorded more than half of both White Americans and African Americans as being in agreement with the statement “Blacks are aggressive or violent”. Further, a study conducted in 2002 found that the general public holds the belief that African Americans are involved in a greater percentage of violent crime (39.4%) than stated in victim surveys for completed violent crime (29.4%). For burglary the public estimated 38.3% while of those arrested 31.6 were blacks. On the other hand, the public thought 39.8% of robberies were done by blacks when victim surveys stated 48.8% for completed robberies.[47][48]
There is, at present, no consensus as to the causes behind the racial disproportionality in arrests, charges and incarceration of African Americans in the United States. However, scholars agree that more research is needed. Gary LaFree gives an account of how studies correlating race and crime were discouraged from the 1960s on as sociologists developed a sensitivity to research that could be seen as placing blame on those who could be victims of racial discrimination.[49]
He further identifies an urgent need for renewed studies of race differences in crime. John Paul Wright, associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Cincinnati, opines that the connection between crime and race should be studied “honestly and courageously” precisely because it is African Americans who have suffered most from the America’s collective failure to understand and control street crime. No other group, says Wright, would benefit more from a “candid examination of race and crime.”[50]
Engaging in the direct study of race and crime, however, is not a straightforward matter. Wright observes that researchers who produce findings which identify race as a determining factor in criminal behavior run the risk of “public repudiation, professional exile, and even career death”.[51] He writes: “If social security is the holy grail of politics, race and crime is the holy grail of criminology. Touch it and you expose yourself to wrath and fury. For this reason, many criminologists are loath to examine the connection between race and crime outside the modern sociological paradigm that holds that race is a mere social construct – that is, something defined by any given society, … a ‘social invention’.”[50] Other scholars have also deplored the current climate surrounding the discussion of race and crime. Professors of sociology Robert J. Sampson and William Julius Wilson of Harvard University describe it as “mired in an unproductive mix of controversy and silence.” [/quote]
More on causation…
[b]Police Discrimination[/b]:
[quote]One theory is that racial overrepresentation is due to police discrimination.
Various studies have shown that, in recent decades, there has not been any noticeable disparity in black vs white crime statistics in black-controlled vs white-controlled cities, say Atlanta vs San Diego. In the largest counties, the rates of conviction for accused blacks was slightly less than the conviction rates for whites, for example.[86]
Heaton and Loeffler (2008) state that some scholars and studies have argued that police discrimination is not an important explanation for racial differences in crime. Others that it is the main cause. Some that both discrimination and different real crime rates contribute. The varying results can be explained to a large degree by the methods being uncertain with many possible confounding factors. As such they propose a method that they argue will remove all such observable and unobservable problems. They looked at the arrest rates for assault, robbery, and rape cases where the victims reported a black and white co-offending pair. They argue that differences in arrest rates should only reflect police bias. They found that the blacks offenders were 3% more likely to be arrested. Although this suggests some bias, it is insufficient to explain the large racial crime disparities.[/quote]
[b]Social Control Theory:[/b]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control_theory[/url]
[quote]Social Control Theory proposes that people’s relationships, commitments, values, norms, and beliefs encourage them not to break the law. Thus, if moral codes are internalized and individuals are tied into, and have a stake in their wider community, they will voluntarily limit their propensity to commit deviant acts. The theory seeks to understand the ways in which it is possible to reduce the likelihood of criminality developing in individuals. It does not consider motivational issues, simply stating that human beings may choose to engage in a wide range of activities, unless the range is limited by the processes of socialization and social learning. This derives from a Hobbesian view of human nature as represented in Leviathan, i.e. that all choices are constrained by implicit social contracts, agreements and arrangements among people. Thus, morality is created in the construction of social order, assigning costs and consequences to certain choices and defining some as evil, immoral and/or illegal.[/quote]
[b]Subculture Theory[/b]:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcultural_theory[/url]
[quote]Culture represents the norms, customs and values which both guide behaviour and act as a framework from which behaviour is judged by the majority. It is transmitted socially rather than biologically. A subculture is a distinctive culture within a culture, so its norms and values differ from the majority culture but do not necessarily represent a culture deemed deviant by the majority. A subculture is distinguished from a counterculture which operates in direct opposition to the majority culture. Cultural Transmission Theory and Social Disorganization Theory posit that, in the poorest zones of a city, certain forms of behavior become the cultural norm transmitted from one generation to the next, as part of the normal socialization process. Successful criminals are role models for the young, demonstrating both the possibilities of success through crime, and its normality. See Shaw (1930) who describes the social pressure to engage in criminality. Subcultural Theory proposes that those living in an urban setting are able to find ways of creating a sense of community despite the prevailing alienation and anonymity. The cultural structure is dominated by the majority norms, which forces individuals to form communities in new and different ways. More recently, Fischer (1995) proposed that the size, population, and heterogeneity of cities actually strengthens social groups, and encourages the formation of subcultures, which are much more diverse in nature compared to the general culture. Fischer defines a subculture as, “…a large set of people who share a defining trait, associate with one another, are members of institutions associated with their defining trait, adhere to a distinct set of values, share a set of cultural tools and take part in a common way of life” (Fischer: 544). In less densely populated and less diverse environments, the creation of such subcultures would be nearly impossible. But ethnic minorities, professionals, the artistic avant-garde, displaced agricultural families, etc. come to live in cities and their lifestyles come to typify cities.[/quote]
[b]Hormone Theory:[/b]
[quote]One of the most striking differences regarding crime is the difference between males and females. Thus, one proposed explanation is that average racial differences in sex hormones may be one explanation for crime differences.[/quote]
[b]Household Income Correlation[/b]
[quote]There is a correlation between household incomes for black households in the lowest/1st quintile [113] and the aggregate violent and property crime rates [114].[/quote]
This last point flies against David’s claim that studies CONCLUDE WITHOUT ANY ROOM FOR ARGUMENT that black over-representation in crime and punishment is corrected for ALL socio-economic factors. From a macro view (instead of researchers selecting a subset of people) there is direct correlation between income levels and crime. Hence, the easy conclusion is that raising household income levels within the black population will reduce crime. This then gets back to my earlier point that a growing economy will help solve the problem with over-representation on blacks in prison. And by this measure, Obama has been very bad for blacks.
Jeff- You can’t read a couple of Wikipedia entries and claim to understand such a complex issue, anymore than I can read an article on Elliot wave cycles and claim to predict markets, although I hear that’s very profitable .
biddlin: I agree that this is a complex issue. However, the arguments thrown at me are “matter-of-fact” derived statistics based on narrow focus and narrow assumptions. I have also been blasted as not having looked up anything or educated myself on any of the “science”. My point in posting the Wikipedia content is to point out all the other “science” being ignored. There are a lot of theories as to causes for difference in racial representation in various datasets. Frankly, the large discrepancy in black representation of crime and punishment simply cannot be explained by racism unless we accept that:
1) Blacks are singled out for racial bias over Latinos and Asians;
2) It is gross racial bias against blacks since the variance is tremendous.
I see no evidence of these two things. Hence, the acts of looking for solutions within the racism template are chasing the wrong cause. If the goal is to level the representation in education, prosperity and crime/punishment (goals I completely share), then doesn’t it make sense to open our minds and honestly and bravely address each potential cause? I’m not saying that racism does not exist… what I am trying to get across is that there is not enough of it around anymore to warrant so much attention… it distracts us from focusing on real solutions to the real problems of race-based under and over representation.
Trust me, I want to punch all the ignorant idiots that make racial remarks and/or exhibit racist behavior. I should have taped the dressing down I did of a couple of Mid West boys during my last trip back… after they let loose their ignorant race-tinted views of California (by then they had already consumed much of a 36-pack of Keystone Lite purchased at the local Wal-Mart). In retrospect it was a waste of my time. These types of idiots will never change. But, thankfully, there are very few of them… especially in Davis. They generally don’t have any influence or power. If they do somehow rise to a level of influence or power and wield their racist views to discriminate, there are copious laws on the books to protect minorities from being hurt, or to allow them to collect damages.
I played High School basketball with a kid who was my best friend through the end of my junior year. I didn’t see him all summer, and my senior year he had changed… for the worst. Before, he was a happy, friendly, nice and self-confident guy. After, he was angry and with a giant chip on his shoulder. He dropped out of high school and later I heard he went to prison. Just a few years ago another old high school friend and I were talking about him. The story was that he had some racial encounters with coworkers at a summer job, and experienced a breakup with a girlfriend that (he thought) was caused by the parents forbidding their daughter to date a black kid. Thinking about this… even if these episodes where racial… my friend ruined his own life not being able to deal with it.
This is my other point… David and others reinforce this view that over and under-representation and explained by continued – albeit more subtle – forms of racism. My point is that lives are destroyed by enablers that scream racism for every encounter… they prevent the development of coping skills and make the slippery-slope of victimhood much too easy to plunge down. Wisdom, strength and success are won from conquering adversity… not from blaming others.
Jeff
” David and others reinforce this view that over and under-representation and explained by continued – albeit more subtle – forms of racism
I think we will just have to disagree on causation in this case. Do you really believe that the two little mixed race kids I referenced, probably around 5 and 7 by my guess, will not be harmed more by hearing these kinds of derogatory comments than they will by hearing someone point out that these kinds of comments still exist and are wrong.
I simply cannot believe that attempts to discuss and resolve social issues are more harmful than the bad behavior itself. Saying something has always existed is no reason to not attempt to expose and combat it. Would you make the same argument about domestic violence, or rape, or child or elder abuse. These have also always been with us. That does not mean we should not be continually attempting to increase awareness of their existence, decrease their incidence and lessen their impact.
[i]” Do you really believe that the two little mixed race kids I referenced, probably around 5 and 7 by my guess, will not be harmed more by hearing these kinds of derogatory comments than they will by hearing someone point out that these kinds of comments still exist and are wrong.”[/i]
Medwoman, it think it depends on the total message. Note that Tiger Woods is mixed-race. What lessons did his parents and relatives teach him?
There was a war-time slogan used in the UK during WWII: “It all depends on me”. A derivative of this slogan was: “I am responsible for myself”.
The slippery slope is when “attempts to resolve social issues” cause people to become chronic victims and to blame others and think that their happiness and success is someone else’s responsibility. When that happens you have effectively destroyed a life.
If I was the parent or relative of a mixed-race, or minority-race, child I would being having many conversations with him/her about general human behavior and the principles of self-reliance. I would be helping the child understand that he/she does not need constant validation of worth to believe in his/her goodness, capability and value. I would point out that bias and prejudice exists because there are many ignorant, insecure people on the planet, and there are even some downright cruel people too. I would help develop the coping skills needed to deal with bullies, to recognize bad behavior and good behavior and to develop and maintain strong relationships.
Demonstrations of any type of bias become fantastic teaching opportunities for childhood development. So much focus on racism… seeing it in almost every human encounter, IMO, teaches the absolute wrong lesson. It contributes to a mindset of a helpless victim, or foments anger and a chip on the shoulder. It was justifiable a few decades ago, but not now.
Eric Holde, USAG uses race card…
In response, Charles Krauthammer noted: Eric Holder ‘one of the most incompetent attorneys general in US history’
http://news.yahoo.com/krauthammer-eric-holder-one-most-incompetent-attorneys-general-184735408.html
Charles Krauthammer is a conservative columnist rather than an impartial observer, so it’s not exactly meaningful what he thinks of Holder.