“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character,” Martin Luther King, Jr., said fifty years ago last summer.
The simple truth that Martin Luther King spoke has ironically become simultaneously accepted by mainstream society in their rhetoric, but rejected in their actions. Long after the last vestiges of Jim Crow were vanquished, we remain a nation as divided as ever along racial lines, from our politics to our housing to our economic opportunities.
While more African-Americans have college degrees than ever, the black man is still more likely to spend time in custody than see the inside of a college classroom.
Last summer, we had a rare opportunity to glimpse inside of what black America has to deal with on an everyday basis. In the wake of the acquittal of Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case, President Barack Obama, for one of the rare times of his presidency, addressed the nation as an African-American.
The President said, “When Trayvon Martin was first shot I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago.”
This is the reality that all African-Americans have to deal with in our society – the prospect of being treated not because of their actions, but being regarded with suspicion because of the color of their skin and the location of their whereabouts.
We have the President of the United States articulating what it is like to be racially profiled. He said, “There are very few African American men in this country who haven’t had the experience of being followed when they were shopping in a department store. That includes me. There are very few African American men who haven’t had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars.”
He continued: “There are very few African Americans who haven’t had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off. That happens often.”
Some believe that this is indeed justified, based on crime statistics and a perceived propensity for African-Americans to be more likely to commit crimes than whites.
But I think the most important thing the President said was this: “The African American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws — everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.”
He adds: “This isn’t to say that the African American community is naïve about the fact that African American young men are disproportionately involved in the criminal justice system; that they’re disproportionately both victims and perpetrators of violence.”
At the same time, he can articulate the concern of those in the black community when he states, “It’s not to make excuses for that fact — although black folks do interpret the reasons for that in a historical context. They understand that some of the violence that takes place in poor black neighborhoods around the country is born out of a very violent past in this country, and that the poverty and dysfunction that we see in those communities can be traced to a very difficult history.”
“I think the African American community is also not naïve in understanding that, statistically, somebody like Trayvon Martin was statistically more likely to be shot by a peer than he was by somebody else. So folks understand the challenges that exist for African American boys,” he said. “But they get frustrated, I think, if they feel that there’s no context for it and that context is being denied. And that all contributes I think to a sense that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, that, from top to bottom, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different.”
The view of whites and conservatives seem to be that, while the system may be unfair, the key to progress for African-Americans is individual responsibility. If the system is unfair – and many increasingly acknowledge that it is – the answer is to avoid the system.
My problem goes back to the arguments of Michelle Alexander, the author of The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, and I believe that these individuals – while well-intentioned, at least at times – miss the critical link between drug policies, unequal enforcement and the poverty-crime cycle.
To put it plainly – once blacks get into the system, the system creates hurdles making it nearly impossible to get out. The unequal enforcement and damage of a single early conviction has a huge ripple effect down the line.
The argument of Michelle Alexander is this: “In the era of colorblindness, it is no longer socially permissible to use race, explicitly, as a justification for discrimination, exclusion, and social contempt. So we don’t. Rather than rely on race, we use our criminal justice system to label people of color ‘criminals’ and then engage in all the practices we supposedly left behind.”
Once an individual enters the criminal justice, she argues, “the old forms of discrimination – employment discrimination, housing discrimination, denial of the right to vote, denial of educational opportunity, denial of food stamps and other public benefits, and exclusion from jury service – are suddenly legal. As a criminal, you have scarcely more rights, and arguably less respect, than a black man living in Alabama at the height of Jim Crow.”
The implications of this are stunning in their impact.
“African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses,” according to the Human Rights Watch. “From 1980 to 2007 about one in three of the 25.4 million adults arrested for drugs was African American.”
Blacks get harsher punishments than whites, even controlling for repeat offenses and nature of crimes.
“The U.S. Sentencing Commission stated that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10 percent longer than white offenders for the same crimes. The Sentencing Project reports that African Americans are 21 percent more likely to receive mandatory-minimum sentences than white defendants and are 20 percent more likely to be sentenced to prison.”
Once in the system, getting out is tough. Convicted felons cannot vote, are ineligible for public housing and an array of public assistance benefits, and, of course, having to check the “felon box” is a huge barrier to attaining jobs.
Studies have shown: “Evidence shows that spending time in prison affects wage trajectories with a disproportionate impact on black men and women. The results show no evidence of racial divergence in wages prior to incarceration; however, following release from prison, wages grow at a 21 percent slower rate for black former inmates compared to white ex-convicts. A number of states have bans on people with certain convictions working in domestic health-service industries such as nursing, child care, and home health care-areas in which many poor women and women of color are disproportionately concentrated.”
We will not realize Martin Luther King’s dream until we are able to deal with the inequities of the justice system and the implications of mass incarceration.
So today, as we celebrate the legacy of Martin Luther King, we need to bear in mind that there is much more work to be done. It is easy to lower the legal thresholds to equality, but it is far more difficult to deal with the social implications of the poverty-crime-prison cycle.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
the judicial system and mass incarceration is part of the problem driving the achievement gap and income equality. we need to figure out a way to save those who get caught up in the system from a life of crime and life of incarceration. that is the biggest civil rights challenge of our age in my view.
You are using half circle logic. You go to the point where you feel better and then stop.
What is the root cause of the tremendous over-representation of blacks in crime?
The template of the race baiter is that law enforcement and the criminal justice system is biased against some minorities. There are a tremendous number of holes in this “logic”, the largest being that only one minority group is tremendously over-represented. If the biased existed, why would we not see more minority groups represented?
The root cause of black over-representation in crime is that black males have adopted a culture of crime and bad behavior. And this is enabled by people invested in perpetuating a template of racial conflict by establishing a victim shroud giving excuse to the bad behavior that leads to overrepresentation in crime statistics.
You can see the problem in individuals with addiction problems. They make bad decisions that become increasingly destructive. Some people around them begin to walk on eggshells not directly criticizing and challenging this bad behavior because it just makes the damaged person more despondent. So they deny and sugar-coat the situation to maintain a good relationship. But to what end? Denying and sugar-coating is not the response of a true savior. It is the selfish act of somebody that wants to feel good at the expense of the long-term health and well-being of the person addicted to bad behavior.
Bad behavior is bad behavior. We need a color-blind culture when it comes to expectations and consequences. Our continued tendency to make excuses and prop-up the black race because of our guilt and need to feel good is the source of the continued crappy circumstances of so many blacks.
How great would it be if we could finally see materially similar positive outcomes between all racial groups? That should be the quest of our civil rights 2.0 march. How do we get there? What we are doing today is obviously not working. It is time to think deeply… the full-circle analysis of cause-effect-solution.
Frankly,
Talk about “holes in logic” !
You state “There are a tremendous number of holes in this “logic”, the largest being that only one minority group is tremendously over-represented. If the biased existed, why would we not see more minority groups represented?”
You have completely ignored the fact that in our history, only one group was subjected to slavery and thus was systematically denied access to the benefits of their own labor, but also denied the experience of being able to earn their own way, make their own associations, establish their own families none of whose members could be sold away at the discretion of the master. You act as though this could not possibly have contributed to the individual choice and family patterns that have been passed down. Please tell me the exact year that you think these influences were completely eradicated in our society and why.
Now that is not to say that other minorities have not been mistreated. The white expansionists chose genocide and creation of rural ghettos called “reservations”to deal with the Native Americans. We provided what amounted to indentured servitude to many immigrant groups including the Chinese, Irish, Italians and other immigrant groups. We
forced the Japanese into internment camps in WWII. But only blacks have been systematically subjected to slavery in our country. To pretend that this policy and its aftermath in other areas of the country has not played and does not continue to play a significant role in the dynamics between races in this country remains a major hole in your
“logic”.
the civil rights issue during King’s day was far easier that ours in terms that it was really a bright line distinction – equal protection under the law. the problem is that once you lower the de jure racism, you still have to deal with de facto racism. we continue to have disparate treatment under the guise of law and order. we continue to allow separate forgetting that separate is inherently unequal. what you call race baiting is frustration that bubbles to surface due to the tide of rising expectations and the slow pace of progress.
Reposted reply to this repost.
Then what is the solution to the problem? Is the “frustration bubbling to the surface” helping anything? Are those that enflame the frustration helping anything? An angry man will make stupid mistakes. And angry many embedded in a culture of gansta lawlessness will make stupid permanent mistakes that ruin his life.
Where does this behavior originate from today? Why in a world where there is great acceptance for people of all colors and ethnic origins to be integrated and equal, do we have a race still stuck behind and isolated?
Slavery and the racism of pre-civil rights caused a great sense of racial insecurity. But blacks were not the only group affected this way. For example, look at the historical persecution of Jews. Every other group has moved on. But by the statistics of outcomes, not blacks. They have adopted a uniquely destructive culture that is propped up by the race baiters that benefit in some way by this perpetual state of victim.
It is those blacks that are raised by people that impress upon them the fact that they are beautiful, smart, creative and capable… and that there are absolute requirements and consequences for bad behavior that will not be tolerated no matter how damn sorry they feel for themselves at times in their lives. That is not the lesson being taught. The lesson being taught is the same that you demonstrate… a hand-wringing of inference that racism still exists and it is somebody else’s fault when destructive bad behavior occurs.
Frankly, the fundamental flaw with your argument is that African-Americans ‘wear” their ethnic (much better designation than “racial”) label much more conspicuously than those people whose religious pracice is Judaism. No matter how hard they might try, they can not escape that label.
Matt – I think the simple point is that there is not reasonable remedy for persecution other than perseverance. You cannot effectively solve persecution of some by advocating persecution of others. This is especially true when the first persecution is primarily just a broken spirit. How do you raise the spirit to handle adversity and persevere? If the road is difficult do you make things better by complaining about the road and blaming it for its unaccommodating ways? Do you really help encourage people to take the road… the one required to achieve and better life… by continuing to paint it as unfair? Do you think it really helps people to give them a special protected ride down the road. What happens when your protection stops? Will they know how to travel well by themselves?
Racism today is no different than the political partisanship we see. It is just the level of groupism and tribalism that is an unfortunate but natural human condition. To survive and succeed in this world, all children need to be taught how to maneuver a life through it. They need to be taught that life is difficult, and there are a lot of mean people out there greedy for their own attention, needs and wants at the expense of others’ same. They are people tending toward petty jealousy, envy and personal protection of their tenuous feeling of rank. They are insecure and prone to pick on those that demonstrate greater insecurity.
The most successful black people come from families that explained these things to them as children. They are taught that adversity visits most of us on a regular basis and we either rise to it and beat it, or we shrink and let it beat us down to hopelessness or anger… both leading us to a life of bad decisions.
Frankly
Predictably enough, I see your “road” analogy differently.
If the road is rough, there are a number of different ways of approaching that problem. Yes, one can teach people how to navigate it more smoothly.
One could also consider improving the road itself by “leveling out” the potholes. One could also extend a hand to help someone across a particularly difficult stretch. There are many ways to navigate a rough road. But surely the entire group will get down that road more quickly and surely with a cooperative rather than a purely competitive effort.
Reposted from the similar topic from yesterday.
I’m sure if Martin Luther King were alive today he would see that we had accomplished the dream but for those failing to stand up and grab hold of it. He would point out destructive force delivered by the idols of racial victimology and rage… his false contemporaries that continually bait racial conflict for their personal gain. He would see that we are in need of civil rights 2.0… and that the new problem is that there is a powerful elite holding it stuck in the old version. He would talk about the “new slavery”… a state of mind that is perpetuated by the very people claiming to be the champions of racial progress. And lastly, he would recognize that government policies preventing adequate growth in job opportunities and instead increases government hand-outs, to be analogous to the plantation… but a more cruel one that leaves the gates wide open while imprisoning the spirit from within.
Dr. King’s “I have a Dream” speech was and should be about being color blind. Racism is manifest in those failing to be color blind… today this failing is dominated by those claiming to care the most. Moving forward will require these people just stop and move on to some other cause.
the first solution is to fix the inequity of the justice system. the second solution is to find way to help people escape from the cycle of poverty and mass incarceration. until we do that, we just trap people under a morass of lifelong mistakes.
is the frustration helping anything? i don’t know.
i think people feel that they must inflame to get the attention of the mainstream press which was asleep at the wheel during the ramp up to mass incarceration.
i also think the black slavery experience for lack of a better were is deeper and more impactful than any other group in america except for purpose the native americans, who are struggle as badly as blacks.
“inequity of the justice system”? There you go with that same victimology that perpetuates the problems.
The message is that the system is rigged against the black man. How do you think that plays in the mind of a black child? How about another message…
Justice is color-blind. Do the crime and you will be punished. And the punishment is lifelong as it will cause you great difficulty competing for prosperity with all of the other people that did not commit any crime.
And you bring on that other excuse… that our history of slavery somehow is still relevant and you still infer that this is another excuse and that blacks are still victims of it.
Again, how is that message helping? How about…?
Slavery was solved decades ago. It is not impacting you a bit unless you let the memory of it impact you. Be thankful that you live in a day where the US is color-blind and does not differentiate by the color of a man’s skin, only the content of his character.
So do you favor lying to a black child and telling him that the system works identically for his white classmate when you know objectively from the numbers that this is not true ?
Justice is not colorblind. You have juries that judge facts based on a whole range of factors. You have more affluent people with access to high powered attorneys, lower income people who are forced to use overworked public defenders. There is a crisis of indigent defense and all of those are people of color.
“Do the crime and you will be punished. ”
People of color are more likely to be arrested, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to serve time in custody than whites.
Somewhat related, I heard an interesting radio piece yesterday called, “Rap Lyrics as Evidence” in which rap lyrics written by a suspect were used as evidence of a crime. It would be like convicting Johnny Cash of murder because he wrote that he “shot a man in Reno just to watch him die,” but some jurors have their biases.
Actually seen a few gang trials where they used rap lyrics to prove that a person was a gang member.
I think that was addressed in this piece.
David wrote:
> People of color are more likely to be arrested, more
> likely to be convicted, and more likely to serve time
> in custody than whites.
Asians are LESS likely to be arrested, LESS likely to be convicted and LESS likely to serve time in custody than whites.
The reason, Asians are LESS likely to “commit” crimes.
We know there is some “racial bias” in the courts and I’m sure that there are some Asians that “got off” because a jury could not imagine an asian kid who was captain of the math team with a 4.4 GPA as a criminal. The main reason is that Asians commit LESS crimes (the main reason that we have higher numbers of other races in jail is that they commit MORE crimes)…
“the main reason that we have higher numbers of other races in jail is that they commit MORE crimes”
The main reason is that they are arrested more often, and then convicted of a crime. Marijuana arrests are a good example. In middle- and upper-class (mostly white) communities, arrests for minor possession are rare, but they’re extremely common in inner city neighborhoods.
I should have added that marijuana use is about the same among white and black youths.
Lots of stats available here:
http://marijuana-arrests.com/
Since you believe that this “color blind” society is in existence rather than just the goal, then you would surely agree that the “stop and frisk” policy should apply equally to a black man walking down the street of a New York neighborhood and a white man walking down the same street at the same time of night. Do you honestly believe that this is what is occurring on the streets of New York given the controversy over this policy ?
Where did you stand on the recent policy of long prison sentences for blacks in possession of small amounts of crack cocaine vs comparative slaps on the wrist for whites in possession of equal amounts of “powder” ?
Decriminalizing drug possession would go a long way toward reducing the disparity in incarceration rates between the races.
You only need to look at the rates of suspension in Davis schools to see that there is a serious problem with racial bias here in our town.
I think there is a boy bias and a bias against non-template learners… the template being the typical genetically-blessed more academically-gifted. I disagree that it is a racial bias. And I think that by making this claim, you perpetuate the problem… or at the very least continue a diversion that prevents the implementation of real solutions.
Do you not believe that there was any “racial bias” in the flagrantly racist jokes that were circulated about the Obamas, not just by what we would probably all agree were “crack pots” on the internet, but by a number of our elected officials.
I am not going to honor these flagrantly racist comments by re posting them, but if you doubt that they exist simply Google Obama racist jokes and a extensive collection of these blatantly racists comments come up posted by judges, elected officials and people prominent in our society in other venues. I would be very interested to see if you then can come back and honestly state that there is not glaring racism and hypocrisy about its existence being circulated as “jokes” electronically. Then, seeing that it exists electronically, can you honestly state that it would not color how an individual of a different race might be treated in the daily lives of these bigots who do not even have the grace to apologize or worse yet, honestly do not see anything wrong with this behavior or that we currently live in a color blind society ?
Frankly: I think there is a boy bias and a bias against non-template learners… the template being the typical genetically-blessed more academically-gifted. I disagree that it is a racial bias. And I think that by making this claim, you perpetuate the problem… or at the very least continue a diversion that prevents the implementation of real solutions.
Having raised and graduated at least one “non-template learner,” I see the over-emphasis on standardized testing in measuring academic progress and in measuring the quality of education to very problematic. This is a legacy of NCLB, and I’m concerned that the intensity of testing will continue under Common Core. Standardized testing in the public schools has been around since at least the 1960’s, but not with the intense focus that NCLB has brought about.
This had been going on since before NCLB. In fact, NCLB was enacted to help solve the problem of education attention bias.
Frankly: This had been going on since before NCLB. In fact, NCLB was enacted to help solve the problem of education attention bias.
You mean NCLB helped with biasing attention more toward test scores?
The difference is that NCLB prescribed certain levels of proficiency under penalty, all under the guise of “because it’s for their own good” and “it’s all for the kids” and anything less would be the “soft bigotry of low expectations”. That is high stakes testing. What existed before then was not prescribed benchmarks. I am unaware of anything like that before then. The problem is that not everyone matures in the same way at the same rate in the same area. It is akin to prescribing that all people should have certain body measurements, or should be able to run 5 minute miles. NCLB is a nationally-mandated one-size fits all approach that any good conservative like yourself should be ashamed of ever having defended.
We raised and graduated a son who was a “non-template learner”, and we intentionally exempted him (our parental right) from STAR tests in all but one or two select subjects each year. We tailored his schedule to meet graduation requirements at his own pace and yet explore interests beyond the required core. It took him longer to graduate than the rest of his cohort, by two years. He was a statistical “liability” for DJUSD in numerous ways, especially under NCLB, but the district provided alternatives every step of the way. And now he’s on his way to finishing college.
But school districts really don’t get credit for doing that under NCLB. At one point he was also a statistical HS dropout, the very statistic you use to blast American education for being crappy. Not everyone follows the path of your template for what education ought to be.
High stakes testing puts focus on test scores and not on the broader spectrum of educational experience.
On a scale of 1 to 100, with 100 being the most involved and capable parent putting in a lot of time and effort to manage and help their non-template learner child get a quality eduction, what score would you give yourself related to this son that is on his way to finishing college?
There is actually a fairly easy way to assess for and eliminate bias that has been adopted by a number of symphony orchestras. That is to conduct the audition behind a screen so that those doing the judging are unable to detect the race or gender of the applicant. This has led to a marked equalization of the numbers of females and males in symphony orchestras.
We could run a trial where all school disciplinary actions are decided by a principle or delegate from a different school with the actions and all relevant circumstances are described fully without the person judging being able to detect the gender, race, or religion of the accused.
If the numbers of punished and punishments remained unchanged, then that would be support for Frankly’s contention that we are now “color blind” and just need to “move on”.
I suspect that that ratio would change substantially, and freely admit that I could be wrong.
I think that Robb Davis would be a good one to weigh in on whether the Juvenile justice system has the capacity to do this in any fashion or if there would be any interest in this approach.
Tia – I do not want to sound like a broken record but restorative processes hold out a great deal of hope in relation to suspensions and expulsions. A combination of restorative processes in the classroom (using approaches like “Discipline that Restores”) and conferencing with students who have committed more serious offenses are the keys. I have been having ongoing conversations with a number of people in the DJUSD and they are moving forward to implement such practices.
The “school-discipline-to-prison pipeline” is real and restorative practices hold out great hope to interrupting it. Given that suspensions among black and hispanic students are proportionately higher than among white students (according to people I have talked to in the district), such processes could help address racial disparities in suspensions and expulsions.
While I am not involved in internal discussions on these issues I do discuss them with key staff on a regular basis and there is much interest on the part of community members to support the district in this. Again, Fresno Unified (and a few others around the state) are leading the way on these approaches.
I would support this although it is reactive and constantly competing with destructive practices that encourage bad behavior.
I would prefer quality management and maintenance of the thing instead of needing to restore it at some point.
Ryan Kelly: You only need to look at the rates of suspension in Davis schools to see that there is a serious problem with racial bias here in our town.
I tried to make this as a table, but I don’t know enough about formatting comments to make it happen.
This is data for the 2011-12 school year:
Race, % student population, #suspensions, % suspensions
African-American, 2.8%, 27, 4.5%
White, 56.8%, 305, 51.9%
Asian/PI, 15.8%, 39, 6.6%
Latino, 18.0%, 186, 31.6%
Total suspensions: 588
source
In summary, the suspension rates are concerning, as defined by race/ethnicity, but I think a more significant trend is among “socio-economically disadvantaged” students. More than half of all suspensions fall among students in this category.
There were too few expulsions (4) this year to begin to assess racial/ethnic trends, but all four expulsions fell under the category of socio-economically disadvantaged.
I don’t have access to suspension rates in previous years, but I am told by those who have seen the data from the past decade or so that the suspension rate differential has moderated in recent years.
The school system is by design, engineered to place students on an academic or vocational track from elementary school. The educational systems language is coded only for the upper and middle class, this leaves non whites and lower economic groups of children (who also may be white) in their lower economic group for life. The disproportionate level of non graduates is exactly how the school system was planned to be, and the Davis school system is following the plan, and gets an “A”.
M.B.: The disproportionate level of non graduates is exactly how the school system was planned to be, and the Davis school system is following the plan, and gets an “A”.
That is a cavalier thing to say. I do regular volunteer work tutoring students from lower income families, mainly because I wondered how the local education system was working for those who struggle. I think it is accurate to say that there are a whole lot of Davis citizens who don’t recognize what poverty in Davis looks like, and how much there is (more than most imagine). There are a lot of teachers and staff members in DJUSD who go way out of their way to help such kids, and will never get recognized by the local media or the public for the work that they do.
I don’t think most really care whether or not that they get recognized in public, but it is an insult to them to say the whole Davis school system is out to screw racial/ethnic minorities and poor people.
DJUSD graduated 94.9% of students in the 2011-12 school year, including 100% of African-Americans (12) and 92% of Hispanic/Latino students. Of the 5% who didn’t graduate, some are still counted as continuing. The data on graduation rates is skewed so as not to recognize all the ways that students graduate and during what time frame — “regular” graduation, continuing school, GED.
source
wdf1: I think a more significant trend is among “socio-economically disadvantaged” students. More than half of all suspensions fall among students in this category.
As measured by participation in free/reduced lunch in DJUSD, socio-economically disadvantaged students make up 21.7% of the student population.
Since by definition, this is 1 in 5 of our school aged population, it would seem to me that there is something fundamentally flawed in Frankly’s view of “the road”. This would seem to me a societal problem that deserves a proactive rather than a reactive approach as Frankly has advocated in a different context. To me, the biggest problem here is economic and that underfed, under housed and clothed children will always be at a disadvantage in life no matter how hard they may be willing to work as individuals. Again, I think that the fundamental problem in our society is not a lack of wealth, it is a lack of will to afford the same opportunities to the 1 in 5 that are extended to the others.
You completely lost me when you identified Obama as an African American. He’s as white as he is black (biracial) and looking at his past, he lived a middle class white lifestyle. With the exception of pictures in his Native country, Kenya, as an adult, Obama is picturesd with his white folk, white mother,and Indonesian stepfather.
Obama was marketed to us as being different, than say, Bush junior. We can now see that there’s no difference and Obama has done nothing to improve race relations and even used the race card recently when complaining that his numbers have dropped.
Obama is antithetical to all that MLK embodied, to mention the two together is a discredit for all that MLK valued and lost his life for. Obama would be seen by MLK for the traitor that he is, and all the black folk crying the day of his election—those tears has been washed away by Obama’s tyrannical agenda. It’s the black folk that Obama really hoodwinked.
I have followed race relations in America very closely for the last 50 years. Maybe I was asleep when racism disappeared from the social, political and economic landscape. Can someone remind me?
Laws can be evaded, unenforced etc. But the ideology of white supremacy and black subordination whose tenure in America is of a half millennium duration still has the society in its clutches.
And guilt precludes and direct address of the ideology. This is why we always want to Move on. But we really cant, not until African Americans disappear from America. Sorry!
Why I am surprised to read this from someone that has “followed race relations in America very closely for the last 50 years”. It is clear that your identity is wrapped up in the template of racism.
I doubt you would recognize the arrival of MLK’s dream if it hit you over the head.
I doubt you could even describe what a society is supposed to look like that would cause you to go seek another hobby other than “following racism”.
Because if you could you would be nursing that bump on your head and checking the community colleges for art classes given all the new time you have available.
Little bit “trolly”.
Who? Me or anel?
“White Supremacy” and “black subordination” ? Give me a break. I would not be surprised if anel has a degree in racial studies. What a crock.
Maybe working in IT for most of my career where people of every race, ethnicity, age and socio-economic background all worked together and looked at people like anel like he/she had lobsters coming out of his/her ears when he/she spoke about these things. It is like we have people that live in caves not experiencing the real world around them and continuing to comment based on a VHS tape of an old black and white news story that get replayed over and over again to feel validated about their worldview.
Tia wrote:
> So do you favor lying to a black child and telling him that the system works
> identically for his white classmate when you know objectively from the
> numbers that this is not true ?
No you should tell the black child the truth that white (and asian) kids will need both higher grades and high test scores if they want to go to the same college as the black child.
“No you should tell the black child the truth that white (and asian) kids will need both higher grades and high test scores if they want to go to the same college as the black child.”
That’s not true either.
If it is “not true” name a college that only lets in black kids with high school GPAs and test scores equal to or greater than whites and asians?
I don’t know that I can quantify it. What I do know is that since 1996, Affirmative Action in college admissions was ban. Even before 1996, the system by which students were admitted was far more complex than GPAs and test scores and raw totals.
In California (and some other) “public” schools the courts forced the schools to stop using “race” but still let them admit students taking in to account the “educational benefits of diversity” (that allows them to let in black kids with lower scores).
There have been many court cases (including quite a few before the SCOTUS) with actual data from schools on race and admission info made public. If you can show me some facts that prove what I said is “not true” great, but rember if it is “not true” that means that people have been lying under oath about wanting more “diversity” to many courts.
Tia wrote:
> I am not going to honor these flagrantly racist comments by re posting them,
> but if you doubt that they exist simply Google Obama racist jokes and a extensive
> collection of these blatantly racists comments come up
People have always made jokes about people that are differnet from themselves (in the last election cycle I heard 10 Romney jokes for every one Obama joke).
Kennedy had plenty of Irish, Catholic and Bostonian jokes were these racist? How about all the WASP, Yale and Texas jokes people on the left tell about GW and GHW Bush?
When Kennedy ran, there was the belief that a Catholic could not become President and he had to swear that he would be loyal to US first, and not take directives from the Vatican. Given that context, yes, I would argue that the jokes were anti-Catholic and would have been inappropriate today.
When Romney ran, there was a belief that a Mormon could not become President (they were right and most of the the jokes were funny)…
You do not know, first hand, what the election of a Catholic meant. You did not play.
South of Davis
And which of these other races in our country were forced into slavery ?
How many decades do you need before you stop using it for an excuse?
I will respond to the question of how many decades once you have responded to my question regarding the exact year in which you believe racism in this country ended completely.
We both know, as you have cited on previous threads, that racism still exists in this country. You choose to downplay its effects. I do not believe that the effects are quantifiable, however, I do know that there is a way to negate them as I noted in the example of what symphonies have done in taking away the advantage afforded by appearance of the applicant. This would be the true tell with regard to equality.
Take away the appearance and judge on merit alone. Would you have a problem with this as a proactive approach ?
Key word is “forced”…. others who submitted to a de facto slavery were the Irish, the Japanese, the Chinese, Mexicans (Bracero program), and a lot of women across all racial lines.
None of these groups had husbands, wives and children systemically sold away from each other for the economic or social advantage of an overlord. I am no sociologist, but I cannot help but feel that there will be repercussions through generations of the inability to be assured of the integrity of your family from generation to generation.
You keep digging deeper into nuance to prevent yourself from having to accept any counterpoint.
So, what is your statute of limitations on wrongs?
I checked back on my family tree. There is quite a bit of bad stuff that was done to my ancestors. And my white European people were slaughtered and enslaved by many other groups.
I guess I too have an excuse for misbehaving and deserve help from the government and some get of jail free cards.
“Kennedy had plenty of Irish, Catholic and Bostonian jokes were these racist? How about all the WASP, Yale and Texas jokes people on the left tell about GW and GHW Bush?”
Members of the dominant culture are largely immune to verbal/written attacks on their culture. It’s not an equal playing field.
Jim wrote:
> Members of the dominant culture are largely immune to verbal/written
> attacks on their culture. It’s not an equal playing field.
When did Mormons become part of the “doninant culture” in America?
The dominant culture in this context is white and wealthy. Religion is a sub-category.
Wonderful article in the Enterprise from the Associated Press:
For the first time, racial and ethnic minorities make up more than half the children born in the U.S.
Four states — Hawaii, California, New Mexico and Texas — as well as the District of Columbia have minority populations that exceed 50 percent.
The Latino population is projected to surpass that of whites in California in March to become the single largest race or ethnic group, according to a report on shifting demographics in Gov. Jerry Brown’s 2014-15 budget proposal.
It’s less about one group being a couple tenths more of the population than another group, but more about a continuing trend for California being a majority-minority state
So I don’t know where you get your information Jim Frame. You seem to be stuck on that white guilt thing.
I think the person who mentions white guilt more than anyone else is the one stuck on it.
“Dominant” has nothing to do with population numbers. It’s all about control of resources, including — perhaps especially — the power to create, interpret and enforce legislation.
Jim wrote:
> “Dominant” has nothing to do with population numbers.
> It’s all about control of resources, including — perhaps
> especially — the power to create, interpret and enforce
> legislation
Thanks to the work of MLK and others there has never been a better time to be black in America.
While blacks still face the same challenges as others it is actually easier for a poor black kid today to work hard and become part of the “Dominant” culture in America (and harder for poor white kids).
The percentage of rich and powerful black politicians and business executives who came from poor backgrounds is higher than the percentage of white politicians and business executives that came from poor families.
White kids who were members of Skull & Bones at Yale do have a better chance to become part of the “Dominant” culture, but white kids living in a Woodland trailer park don’t have as much of a shot (even worse than most poor black or Latino kids).
Hope, some day we no longer are fixated on dominance. Doesn’t work well in marriages, other sexual relationships, parenting, and/or in the workplace.
Nope. No guilt at all.
Related to your second point, I think you are looking back to the 1950s. The dominant culture is simply the American culture.
The “persecuted minority, dominate white race”template falls to pieces when we look at Asians as a group. It is all about behavior. Behave like a thug and you tend to get attention by the police and end up with a record. Behave like a successful person and you will likely become successful, and it has nothing to do with race… as our Asian population proves.
People generally rise to their expectations. You seem to accept that some minorities require an easier playing field. Frankly that sounds like a racist thing to me… and destructive too.
When we discuss subjects like this one it is always useful to remember that the root of the word “prejudice” is “pre judge” and with all due respect to many of the posters here in the Vanguard, we all practice a whole lot of “pre judgement” whether we want to admit it or not.
Good discussion above.
Re: statistics listed above–why make race the division category in these statistics? How about family income?
Newsflash: Meanwhile, most of the wealth of the USA continues apace to be consoliidated into fewer and fewer hands.
Hint: Constantly remind the population to identify themselves by race as a primary facet of their social identity; keep the various races bickering among themselves (by framing social problems and diialogue in terms of race); this is far better than poor blacks, whites, hispanics, etc. uniting to moderate against the continuing consolidation of wealth by the elites (consult your Machiavellli); and don’t forget to inflame the sexes against each other with sexism stories and carefully selected stats; and call people (and entire religions) nasty names like homophobes if they disagree with the agenda along those lines, etc. etc. etc. Ignore history and pretend that divide and conquer has never occurred, and would never ever be encouraged by ‘our’ media or supported in academia in our current enllightened culture with the prevailing ways of framing social/political discourse.
jimt: Re: statistics listed above–why make race the division category in these statistics? How about family income?
I agree with this. I see race discussions often as being a proxy for socio-economic class discussions (or what sometimes gets labeled, “class warfare”), and also a potential distraction from what might really be at issue. If Michelle and Barack Obama or Jennifer Lopez were move to Davis, I think they would be welcomed with open arms. But if lower income blacks or hispanic/latinos move to Davis, then I think the tone of welcome changes.
Anyone with much lower incomes won’t be looking to buy in Davis.;>)/
Biddlin: I think you misjudge. Lower income families live in Davis in part by taking advantage of the student economy. There is economic pressure from the university to make a certain amount of housing somewhat affordable. Is it cheaper to live in Woodland or West Sac? Of course. But there are lower income families who choose to live in Davis because they believe the schools and environment are safer. I’m sure you can successfully argue that they’re wrong, but that is perception, and for most, perception is reality.
In my interview with a candidate today, I learned 22% of Davis students qualify for reduced lunches.
Admittedly, a cheap shot, but that’s all a public retiree can afford.
;>)/