The spectacle of the Topete trial has often distracted from the incident and brutal murder itself. This has proved to be a huge disservice to the magnitude of human tragedy that occurred here.
In Mrs. Topete’s testimony, you see the genesis for what was to occur. Mr. Topete was in prison from 1998 until 2007. At some point he began corresponding with Angelique. The couple would be married up in Pelican Bay in 2004 while he was still in prison.
Mrs. Topete was living in Daly City when Mr. Topete was paroled in April 2007. The couple briefly moved to Davis, however, due to sporadic job opportunities for Mr. Topete as a convicted felon on parole, they moved to Arbuckle with his mother.
The couple’s baby was born in February 2008 and was four months old on the day of the incident.
Mrs. Topete had a job at that time at Lowe’s in Vacaville. Because she did not drive, Mr. Topete would drive her to and from work.
On the day in question, June 25, 2008, it was Father’s Day, but the couple had no plans and Mrs. Topete was scheduled to work a 10 to 7 shift.
Mr. Topete, wearing a bright red shirt and white shorts, drove her to work in the Ford Taurus that was registered in his name. The baby was in the back and would be with him when she went to work.
Mr. Topete spent time in Davis, apparently drinking and partying, after spending time earlier at a race track in Lodi.
It was a little before seven when he arrived, with the baby, to pick her up from work.
Mrs. Topete described her husband as “completely drunk” and “passed out over the steering wheel.” He would not wake even as she opened the doors and slammed them.
She said she was very mad at him due to the fact that he was drinking with the baby in the car. She took the baby into the store to show her to some of her co-workers.
Despite the fact that he was drunk, she got into the car with him. She said there were no guns in the car or bullets that she knew of.
He drove slowly on the 505, north toward Arbuckle. But the couple quickly began arguing. She was angry that he was drinking with their daughter in the car. She was concerned about the baby’s safety and his judgment.
During the argument he laughed and said, “I’ll leave you here.” She responded, “Go ahead.”
She thought he was joking but he stopped the car and she got out, grabbed her purse and cell phone and left the baby in the car. She said it was her decision to stay at that spot.
It was around 7:30 and she called a friend from work to pick her up. They went to Wal Mart.
As she described it, they had arrangements to put a deposit down on an apartment the next day. The parole officer had been warning Marco Topete that if he did not find an apartment they would throw him back into prison.
She had to sign the lease, given the fact that he was a convicted felon. Now she was angry and she was going to do some vengeance shopping – trying to make him mad by spending the money that was intended to go to the apartment.
She said that he paid the bills and described him as a tyrant with the money, even though she was the one who earned it.
However, the shopping spree ended quickly when she got a call from Jesse Gonzalez, at whose house the shooting would take place. He was concerned. He reported to her the car had been pulled over at his place.
He did not tell her about shots being fired, but this was enough to anger her, particularly with the baby in the car, and she was screaming. She said, “I lost my mind” and “I just remember going into the car crying.”
When she arrived there was a huge police presence. She said that her biggest concern was about the baby. “I wanted my baby,” she testified. “It revolved around my baby, that’s all I think about when I remember that day.”
David… are you saying that Mr. Topete is a victim of history and circumstances?
No, absolutely not. Unfortunately, everyone else affected by this was.
True.
[quote]She thought he was joking but he stopped the car and she got out, grabbed her purse and cell phone and left the baby in the car. She said it was her decision to stay at that spot.
It was around 7:30 and she called a friend from work to pick her up. They went to Wal Mart.[/quote]
[quote]When she arrived there was a huge police presence. She said that her biggest concern was about the baby. “I wanted my baby,” she testified. “It revolved around my baby, that’s all I think about when I remember that day.”[/quote]
This doesn’t sound like someone who was all that concerned about her child. Or at least her concern for the child was rather belated. Ms. Topete knew who she was marrying, a hardened criminal in prison. She knew if she had a child w him it would be problematic. Yet she chose to put herself in danger, and any prospective child in danger. On the day of the killing, she allowed her drunk husband to leave her on the side of the road and drive off w the baby still in the car – even tho her husband was drunk. She wasn’t particularly worried about the baby’s safety, since she went off shopping at Walmart after her friend picked her up where she had been left… I don’t find Mrs. Topete a very sympathetic character – just my opinion.
[i]”Mr. Topete was in prison from 1998 until 2007. At some point he began corresponding with Angelique. The couple would be married up in Pelican Bay in 2004 while he was still in prison.”[/i]
Two thoughts: only the worst of the worst get sent to Pelican Bay. So it was no surprise that this cretin was evil; and second, it endlessly shocks me how stupid women are who “fall in love” with inmates ([url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/13/gender.uk[/url]). I can only guess she was molested as a girl and had no self respect. Even devils like Richard Ramirez and Scott Peterson are flooded with letters from female admirers ([url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151271,00.html[/url]). I read recently that the Grim Sleeper ([url]http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-10/justice/california.grim.sleeper_1_grim-sleeper-lonnie-david-franklin-serial-killer?_s=PM:CRIME[/url]) serial killer, Lonnie Franklin, gets a dozen letters a day from women who admire him.
Did they ask Mrs. Topete more about the gun – like did she know that he had a gun? Based on the amount of money she must be earning, the purchase of a gun (AR15) would have put a serious dent in their finances – she must have noticed that.
Rich: I think it’s not appropriate to jump to conclusions about her background. She made some very poor choices that I dont really understand here.
Alphonso: I would assume the gun was either someone else’s or stolen. After all he could not have legally purchased a weapon anyway.
This sordid tale was titled honest and revealing. It is neither. Instead, we have an abridged life story, the contents of which is self-serving in the extreme. Even then, it is virtually impossible to show much sympathy for a women who is poster child for a life history poor judgment and bad decision making.
One does feel a great deal of sympathy for the child. The rest of the family? Forget it.
[i]” I think it’s not appropriate to jump to conclusions about her background.”[/i]
Re-read what I wrote, David. I have not concluded anything.
However, I have posed a guess as to why she would have married such a loser as Topete. It is perfectly reasonable to wonder why anyone would be drawn to that beast.
Something is clearly wrong with the women who are attracted to murderers and other serious felons. Lord knows something is far more wrong with Mr. Topete and his ilk.
I think it is an interesting question why someone like Topete becomes the sociopath he became. I would guess that he had terrible parents or an absent father (as is typical) and a mother who did not know how to raise children.
Just as interesting is to think about what kind of childhood a girl must have had to make her think of a guy like Topete as husband material. It’s not as if he was some good guy who turned bad after she met him. She exchanged letters with this beast when he was incarcerated in the worst prison in California, and then she married him when he was an inmate. No normal girl does that. I will jump to a rather obvious conclusion, even if it offends Mr. Greenwald: there is something terribly wrong with her. Exactly what that is I don’t know.
Why do you think it’s not appropriate for Rich to jump to conclusions? Will he be the only one who no longer gets that commonly exercised privilege in the Vanguard? Will you be coming down on folks who claim things that have no basis in the facts as presented? Or people who crawl to conclusions up a hill of assumptions and innuendo? Or others who write before they have enough information on which a reasonable person could base important conclusions? Will Rich be the only one required to follow this new Vanguard rule? Will the rest of us be targeted next?
Re. the response to the Alphonso gun source issue–are you concluding a criminal couldn’t have purchased a firearm illegally as you make your assumption on the options that are possibilities?
Has anyone figured out what he was in prison for?
[quote]the purchase of a gun (AR15) would have put a serious dent in their finances – she must have noticed that.
[/quote]
Dude – think black market prices…
DMG wrote [quote]Rich: I think it’s not appropriate to jump to conclusions about her background. She made some very poor choices that I dont really understand here. [/quote]
Aren’t you jumping to a conclusion when you determine that the wife’s testimony is “honest?”
How do you know?
Come to think of it, what’s your reason for jumping to your headline conclusion that the wive’ testimony was “Honest and Revealing”? After all, hostile witnesses are, well, hostile–or at least trying to be less than open and honest. Why did you conclude that she’s an exception? And before any of the other evidence is in?
I’ve also reread the article several times to find anything in her testimony that “Shows Magnitude of Tragedy,” which indicates magnitude of the murder and its effect on the victim and family.
Would you provide some detail on why she is forced to give up spousal immunity because of child matters?
Mr. O: [i]Has anyone figured out what he was in prison for?[/i]
[quote]In 1994, Topete received a 16-month prison sentence for discharging a firearm with gross negligence in Sacramento County.
Three years later, in 1997, Yolo County prosecutors filed charges of attempted murder and assault with a firearm with enhancements for inflicting great bodily injury and engaging in criminal street gang activity. While that case was pending, Topete picked up an additional charge of battery on an officer, court records show.
Details about the incidents were unavailable. However, Topete later made a plea agreement, admitting to a charge of assault with a semiautomatic rifle in exchange for a 12-year state prison sentence.
from:
Deputy mourned – Suspect will be arraigned on Wednesday
Davis Enterprise, The (CA) – Tuesday, June 17, 2008
Author: Lauren Keene ; Enterprise staff writer
[/quote]
[quote]POLICE / FIRE
SACRAMENTO BEE – Thursday, August 25, 1994
Two Woodland men were arrested at 10:41 p.m. Friday on suspicion of numerous firearm violations near Arden Way and Evergreen Street.
Arrested were Marco Antonio Topete, 22, 312 Bright Day Drive and Gary Michael Maestas, 21, 828 Third St.
Reports say officers heard shots being fired from the Arden-Evergreen vicinity. When they arrived, they reportedly saw Maestas and Topete drive away. Reports say their vehicle was the only one in the area.
After police stopped their vehicle, two handguns were found in the car, police said. Maestas, the driver, then told officers that Topete fired the shots, reports say.
The driver’s gun was loaded, police said, while the passenger’s handgun was empty and appeared to have been recently fired.
Topete is on parole and has a felony conviction that prohibits him from owning or carrying a gun, reports say.[/quote]
Topete has such an extensive history of violience and crime that the parole board should have had some kind of plan for him when he got out. It sounds like, they just turned him loose and didnt really monitor him well or help him with guidance. When someone gets out of prison and they have to “check in” with the parole officer. The parole officer then tells them “find a place to live in Yolo County”. That just isnt enough. I think the parolees need transitional help. To transition back into society. The parolees should be assigned a parole agent for the security risk but they should also be assigned a social worker or case manager to help them transition into living on the outside. People can say what they want about Topete but he is the product of a failed system. I know I am going to get bashed for saying that but it’s true. The entire system needs to be reformed from prosecution, sentencing, and prison to parole.
[i]”People can say what they want about Topete but he is the product of a failed system.”[/i]
Clearly. But I suspect that his violent, lawless behavior is much more the product of a failed upbringing than it is the failings of the Dept. of Corrections.
My belief is that the right time for the system to intervene is much earlier. Ideally, we should be discouraging people who lack the skills to support a family and don’t know how to nurture childen from bearing children or, if they do, we should encourage them to put them up for adoption.
My guess is that Topete grew up in a family in which he was abused or neglected by parents who never should have had children, and certainly never should have raised them. I would also guess that neighbors of his family knew he was trouble very early on.
Rifkin: [i] My guess is that Topete grew up in a family in which he was abused or neglected by parents…[/i]
I won’t try to speculate on what his family upbringing was, but he certainly had a pattern of self-control issues.
[quote]Come to think of it, what’s your reason for jumping to your headline conclusion that the wive’ testimony was “Honest and Revealing”? After all, hostile witnesses are, well, hostile–or at least trying to be less than open and honest. Why did you conclude that she’s an exception? And before any of the other evidence is in? [/quote]
Because I thought the testimony was very damning to Topete. He put that child in danger, the DA’s office never had to press her on anything, so I think it was very much as they understood the chain of events. Most of all, she didn’t look good, she wasn’t trying to paper stuff over. So that’s my reason.
The thing about Topete that maddens you is that the guy is very smart, he speaks well, under other conditions he probably would have made a very good lawyer.
[i][quote]”The thing about Topete that maddens you is that the guy is very smart, he speaks well, under other conditions he probably would have made a very good lawyer.”[/quote][/i]Or a very good blogger.
Or a very good priest.
Or a very good mass murderer.
Or a very good pumpkin.
David, are you friggin’ kidding us?!
How do you look at someone with this history, facing these charges, and even find such stuff coming off your fingers. Given your interest in alternative history, what interesting things could Mahatma Gandhi have become “under other conditions”?
This is what “maddens you” about Topete? Well, not me. There’s a whole long list of things about Topete that madden me; wondering why he ended up not being an attorney doesn’t even come in at 11,756,114,073rd.
Under what “other conditions” would “the guy” (“very smart” and well spoken as he is) “have made a very good lawyer”? Please be specific.
If, as you know only from observing her courtroom testimony, that Topete’s wife was telling the truth, the whole truth…etc.–before you hear any other evidence–that’s good enough for me. It seems a little early to jump to such conclusions, but….
My other (unaddressed) concerns:
I’ve also reread the article several times to find anything in her testimony that “Shows Magnitude of Tragedy,” which indicates magnitude of the murder and its effect on Diaz and his surviving family.
I’d suggest the “true magnitude” would more likely be revealed by the trauma caused by showing the deputy’s patrol-car camera footage rather the testimony you describe.
Would you provide some detail on why she is forced to give up spousal immunity because of child matters? This might help readers understand your sympathetic view of the tragedy for her and their child.
I don’t know why you are reacting that way JustSaying, it was a passing observation about Topete. I recall watching something on Bundy and Judge made the comment that under other circumstances Mr. Bundy might have been litigating in front of him rather than tried in front of him. I feel the same way about Mr. Topete. I don’t know what went wrong in his life, probably everything. Clearly he did something horrific and will never see the light of day again as a free man, nor should he. But I fail to see why I can’t while acknowlewding that make the other observation about a very bright and articulate man who did unspeakable things to people.
JustSaying
I don’t doubt at all that this situation is a tragedy for the child. Let’s see, this baby has an extremely violent father who apparently has no sense of morality and a mother with colossally bad judgement, both in choice of husband and in recognizing and acting on child endangerment
Vs a shopping spree at Wal-Mart. If this is not a tragic beginning to an innocent life, I would be hard put to describe one.
I think harping on the title of this article is absurd and I also think you guys are trying to find something to complain about. I made an observation about her testimony, it seemed very frank and honest to me. She didn’t try to paint a rosy picture of herself, perhaps that is the limit of the reason why I used the term I did in the title.
I fail to understand why you focus so heavily on the headline – I suppose because the article was so descriptive and matter of fact, you had to seize on something.
Now I do think that her testimony reveals a level of magnitude on the tragedy. I think she is a tragic figure in this. However, I don’t think that she’s a sympathetic figure in this. There are about half a dozen points in time when I think she acted very questionably and I think she would be the first to admit it. Leaving her kid in the car with him is at the top of the list.
“Would you provide some detail on why she is forced to give up spousal immunity because of child matters? This might help readers understand your sympathetic view of the tragedy for her and their child. “
I would have to look through my notes from several months ago. But I don’t think it has any connection to your second sentence.
Coming in a little late here:
Rifkin says: “only the worst of the worst get sent to Pelican Bay”
Not so. The “worst of the worst” get sent to the SHU at Pelican Bay. The prison has over 3,000 inmates – 1,200 or so in the SHU. It’s a Level IV prison (like Corcoran, High Desert, Salinas Valley, and several others) in addition to having a SHU. It means little that he was sent there – he could have had enemies elsewhere, he could have gotten in trouble elsewhere. Lots of reasons to go to Pelican Bay.
I don’t think wild generalizations are helpful. Not all prison marriages are like the ones mentioned in Rifkin’s linked article. Remember that murderers and men on death row are the minority in prison. Many men in prison meet women via family members or other inmates’ families who come to visit. Some relationships are sincere and heartfelt (others are not). Men in prison often have very barren and almost non-existent social networks and penpals and relationships can be valuable in allowing them to make meaning out of a dreary and dull life in prison. On the other hand, some men are manipulative and psychopathic and prey on these women. But these are probably the minority. It’s pretty hard for those of us outside prison to understand what it is like.
[quote]Would you provide some detail on why she is forced to give up spousal immunity because of child matters? [/quote]
Hope this answers your question. From wikipedia:
[quote]The spousal testimonial privilege
The spousal testimonial privilege (or spousal immunity) can be used to prevent any party in a criminal case from calling the defendant’s spouse to testify against the defendant about any topic. In federal court as a matter of common law, this privilege attaches to the witness spouse, not to the defendant; that is, the defendant’s spouse can refuse to testify against the defendant, but the defendant may not prevent his or her spouse from testifying against the defendant.
This privilege does not survive the marriage; that is, after divorce, there is no right to refuse to testify against a defendant ex-spouse. This privilege may be restricted to testimony about events that occurred during the marriage, although in some jurisdictions it may apply to testimony about events occurring prior to the marriage.
Other rules relating to the privileges
Both rules may be suspended depending on the jurisdiction in the case of divorce proceedings or child custody disputes, but are suspended in cases where one spouse is accused of a crime against the other spouse or the spouse’s child. Courts generally do not permit an adverse spouse to invoke either privilege during a trial initiated by the other spouse, or in the case of domestic abuse. The privileges may also be suspended where both spouses are joint participants in a crime, depending on the law of the jurisdiction.[/quote]
Frankly, I don’t think you can necessarily conclude anything about Topete’s past. Even good kids with decent parents can go “off the rails” bc they get in w the wrong crowd; are susceptible to being influenced by others; get involved w drugs…
To those making comments about Mr. Topete’s parents. I happen to know his mother and she is and always was devoted to her children. As a child Mr. Topete was involved in sports as were his siblings. Mrs. Topete was a very hard working mother. She is the kind of person who goes the extra mile for a friend and I am proud to say I know her and I also respect her. She does not deserve the mean spirited comments in this blog. I think that E Roberts Musser says it best in his post:
“Frankly, I don’t think you can necessarily conclude anything about Topete’s past. Even good kids with decent parents can go “off the rails” bc they get in w the wrong crowd; are susceptible to being influenced by others; get involved w drugs…”
People should not judge others, especially if they don’t know them.
[i]” I happen to know his mother and she is and always was devoted to her children.”[/i]
And his father was a saint?
Rich,
I also am having a hard time understanding why you are choosing to make derogatory comments and assumptions about people of whom you know nothing.
To rdcanning and E Roberts Musser:
Thank you for your informative comments and I agree with you i.e. about Pelican Bay, women and inmates and childhood history. They are a much needed contrast and much closer to reality than Rifkin’s garbage that tells us more about Rifkin himself — that he would rather just put down women who form relationships with inmates, or that he would rather just try to sound smart about Pelican Bay than to bother to actually find out something about those topics.
[i]”People should not judge others, especially if they don’t know them.”[/i]
Nonsense. Everyone makes judgments about other people. All the time. You could not survive without making judgments about people. And while your rate of error will rise if your information is limited, you can never have perfect information. As is often said, you don’t really ever know another person fully.
[i]”I also am having a hard time understanding why you are choosing to make derogatory comments and assumptions about people of whom you know nothing.”[/i]
I have a hard time understanding why you have characterized my comments as ‘derogatory.’ You imply that my effort is to put someone down where it is inappropriate.
The fact is my comments are an effort to understand, not to put someone down. I am trying to understand why someone becomes evil, like Topete*. I guessed that he had a bad childhood. That is very common among people who become murderers and the like, as he became. Someone said his mother was ‘devoted’ to him. I’ll take her word for it, though that does not mean something didn’t go wrong in his childhood. It would surprise me very much, assuming his mother was as saintly as described, that something was very wrong with his childhood.
I am not a believer in magical spirits or the devil or whatnot determining someone’s fate. My experience in life–as well as a lot of reading about the subject–suggests that bad things in childhood create bad adults. If you have a counter-hypothesis, let’s hear it.
As to Topete’s wife, again, I was trying simply to understand why a woman would marry a serious felon locked up in a serious prison for a serious crime. Speculating that something was missing in her childhood is not ‘dergatory.’ It’s a search to understand what went wrong with her–unless you are going to argue that her behavior was normal?
*I grant, of course, that comments about Topete are derogatory. I assume you and everyone else believes the same about him, based on his evil deeds.) I took your ‘derogatory’ comment to mean what I guessed about his upbringing and the woman who chose to marry him, despite his horrible tract record.
[i]”… Rifkin’s garbage that tells us more about Rifkin himself”[/i]
This violates the terms of service on this website. I think personal attacks like this are supposed to be removed. Thus, I won’t bother to reply.
Regarding Pelican Bay, here is what the California Dept. of Corrections says ([url]http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Facilities_Locator/PBSP.html[/url]): [quote]Pelican Bay State Prison (PBSP) is designed to house California’s most serious criminal offenders in a secure, safe, and disciplined institutional setting. One half of the prison houses maximum security inmates in a general population setting. The other half houses inmates in the Security Housing Unit (SHU) designed for inmates presenting serious management concerns. The SHU is a modern design for inmates who are difficult management cases, prison gang members, and violent maximum security inmates. [/quote] My original statement was correct. RD Canning was wrong.
Rich,
I would like to explain why i characterized your comments as derogatory. I will just quote you.
“It endlessly shocks me how stupid women are who…..”
” I would guess that he had terrible parents”
“My guess is that he grew up in a family in which he was abused or neglected by parents who never should have had children in the first place.”
My understanding of the words ” stupid”. ” terrible ” , abusive, and neglectful is that they tend to be derogatory. Now granted, you chose to cover yourself by saying “I would guess” and “my guess is” , thus avoiding the claim that you were asserting this, however, this does not alter the derogatory nature of your suppositions.
Attempts to understand, as you have claimed is your intent,are generally characterized by enquiring, researching, interviewing, or thoughtful contemplation. I have never felt that reckless speculation with negative stereotypes constituted “an attempt to understand”. If you feel I am wrong, please explain.
And it’s not just the words you use Rich. It’s the sarcastic and nasty tone you use (e.g. “And his father was a saint?” when someone posts something about Topete’s family). You are quick to find fault and when someone points out errors in your arguments you often evade their response, choosing instead to pick out small pieces of statements and deride them or go off on a tangent.
Yes, I did not quote the CDCR’s own website. Let’s think about it – who is the worst of the worst? Why isn’t Death Row at Pelican Bay. Why isn’t Charles Manson at Pelican Bay (he’s at Corcoran). And many validated and high level prison gang members are not at Pelican Bay (would you house them all in the same place?). Pelican Bay is unique because of the SHU’s design, it’s reputation, and it’s remoteness. Given some of the criminals in our prison system, it’s hard to say who is the “worst of the worst.”
So yes, I guess I was wrong if all you know is what the CDCR website says.
Those interested in the spousal privilege issue, here is the defense brief ([url]http://www.yolo.courts.ca.gov/forms/Rply to Mtn 11_001.pdf[/url]), they do not appear to have the prosecution’s brief posted
Judge Richardson agreed with the prosecution that the evidence code allowed Mrs. Topete to testified due to count 7, child endangerment.
The relevant point appears to be Evidence Code Section 972 (E)(1) which states that these privieges do not apply in a “criminal proceeding in which one spouse is charged with (a) crime against the person or property of the other spouse or of a child, parent, relative, or cohabitant of either, whether committed before or during the marriage.”
The defense argued that in this case the charge is child endangerment rather than a direct assault on the child and therefore not covered.
But that seems a tenuous argument at best and the Judge dismissed it.
However, it is clear that Mrs. Topete could only testify as to the child endangerment charges and therefore was not asked about the gang affiliations and other activities.
RDC, you were wrong. Just admit it and move on.
I would like to explain why i characterized your comments as derogatory. I will just quote you.
[i]”It endlessly shocks me how stupid women are who…..” [/i]
Med, you’re being silly. Of course a woman who would marry a terrible felon is stupid. I just wonder why she was so stupid. There is simply no argument against the fact that marrying a Topete is stupid.
[i]” I would guess that he had terrible parents” [/i]
Yes, that is my guess. I have not heard another reasonable explanation for why he turned out so bad.
[i]”My guess is that he grew up in a family in which he was abused or neglected by parents who never should have had children in the first place.” [/i]
Again, until there is another reasonable explanation for why Topete turned out to be so evil, I will continue to guess it was something in his childhood. It is just silliness on your part to say my guessing at this is ‘dregogatory.’
RDC: Did you read that quote?
“Pelican Bay State Prison (PBSP) is designed to house California’s most serious criminal offenders.”
You are endlessly attacking me. You seem to have your panties in a bunch every time I make a comment on the justice system. I once said a large percentage of the inmates have been diagnosed with serious mental illness. You attacked me for that. Never mind I then proved the case. And you denied that.
I won’t bother to respond to your attacks, RDC. You have no credibility on the issue you claim to be an expert on.
[quote]To those making comments about Mr. Topete’s parents. I happen to know his mother and she is and always was devoted to her children. As a child Mr. Topete was involved in sports as were his siblings. Mrs. Topete was a very hard working mother. She is the kind of person who goes the extra mile for a friend and I am proud to say I know her and I also respect her. She does not deserve the mean spirited comments in this blog.[/quote]
Thanks so much for sharing this.
[quote]Again, until there is another reasonable explanation for why Topete turned out to be so evil, I will continue to guess it was something in his childhood. It is just silliness on your part to say my guessing at this is ‘dregogatory.’ [/quote]
First, you ARE JUST GUESSING. You don’t know.
Secondly, you really need to get out more. There are many, many situations where kids come from the most rotten families, and turn out great. Conversely, there are many, many situations where kids come from the best, most caring families, often two parent families w no divorce, in which the kids go bad.
From http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/12/when-good-parents-have-bad-children/
[quote]But while I do not mean to let bad parents off the hook — sadly, there are all too many of them, from malignant to merely apathetic — the fact remains that perfectly decent parents can produce toxic children.
To learn more, read the full story, “Accepting That Good Parents May Plant Bad Seeds,” and then please join the discussion below.[/quote]
The problem is there are so many temptations and peer pressure to do the wrong thing, that parents cannot necessarily counteract these forces. From peer pressure from the wrong crowd, to use of drugs, to over-permissiveness in society as to sexual behavior and the proliferation of porn, to bad boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, etc.
Elaine, did you just cite the NYT to support your argument (which I happen to agree with, by the way), after casting doubt on the same source (NYT) when I referenced it in a comment to another article??? What gives?
[quote]The problem is there are so many temptations and peer pressure to do the wrong thing, that parents cannot necessarily counteract these forces. From peer pressure from the wrong crowd, to use of drugs, to over-permissiveness in society as to sexual behavior and the proliferation of porn, to bad boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, etc. [/quote]
So ideas that lead one to act are vital?
Rich,
At the risk of being called “silly” again, of course only in the least derogatory way possible, I would like to present another possible explanation for Mr. Topete’s actions related to my area of expertise. Some infants sustain brain damage either prenatally or intrapartum. Some of these children will have severe physiologic and cognitive difficulties which in aggregate are known as cerebral palsy. These children are easy to identify and the best parenting in the world will not overcome their deficits. With other children, there may be more subtle problems such as autism or milder difficulties with cognitive processes or lack of ability to relate to or have empathy for others. Now I am not speculating that this is the case with Mr.Topete, but I think it is certainly as viable a possibility as you speculating it was poor parenting without any evidence.
Or perhaps you feel that despite my 25 years as an obstetrician, you are more knowledgeable in this area also as you implied to rdcanning even though he happens to be a nationally recognized expert and speaker in his area of expertise.
Yes Rich, I read the quote and stand by my statements. You are right – the quote says those words.
Re. your comments about our discussion a couple months ago, I believe we were talking about a BJS study (Mental Health Problems of Jail and Prison Inmates – http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/mhppji.pdf) published in 2006. I challenged your assertions and spent a fair amount of time explaining why your broad stroke statement (repeated again above that: “a large percentage of the inmates had been diagnosed with serious mental illness”) was not accurate and why. In the study from BJS they found that “more than half of all jail and prison inmates had a mental health problem” including 56% of state inmates. The problem with your statement is that you don’t seem to understand the difference between a self-reported diagnosis and reporting rates of diagnosis by clinical interview or structured diagnosis. Most studies that used rigorous methods to come to diagnoses of prison inmates put the number around 10-15%. See, for instance, “More Mentally Ill Persons Are in Jails and Prisons Than Hospitals: A Survey of the States” from the Treatment Advocacy Center and National Sheriffs Association, 2010.
Once again, you make a broad brush statement and when someone challenges you, you ignore their arguments (which you did when we had the exchange about this article) or you make a sarcastic comment such as the one about Topete’s father, in response to a reasonable statement by a contributor. At times you make wild statements (your “stupid” women comment earlier) and then castigate others for criticizing yours (Medwoman is “silly”). You say my credibility is nil when I speak about CDCR and correctional systems, but that’s simply you opinion. If you understood better about how our prison system works (I’ve worked in it for ten years) then maybe you would not make some of the statements you do.
Your statements on this list at times are, in my opinion, boorish and bullying. When someone crosses the line and makes a nasty personal comment about you (“Rifkin’s garbage”) you cry foul.
I don’t attack you – I attack your statements. It’s obvious that on some topics you speak passionately from personal experience and knowledge (mental health issues in particular) but rather than ask someone why they might disagree with you, you simply attack them and suggest, for instance, that they have their “panties in a bunch” (how quaint).
Civil discourse ought to be just that – civil – and ought to include a give and take, plus some humility, which some commenters seem to lack.
So yes, Rich, you are right. And I am wrong. There – I said it.
[quote]Elaine, did you just cite the NYT to support your argument (which I happen to agree with, by the way), after casting doubt on the same source (NYT) when I referenced it in a comment to another article??? What gives?[/quote]
Had to do a quick search and didn’t even notice who the source was. Has I had the time, I could have cited dozens of article on the subject. Good catch tho!
[quote]At the risk of being called “silly” again, of course only in the least derogatory way possible, I would like to present another possible explanation for Mr. Topete’s actions related to my area of expertise. Some infants sustain brain damage either prenatally or intrapartum. Some of these children will have severe physiologic and cognitive difficulties which in aggregate are known as cerebral palsy. These children are easy to identify and the best parenting in the world will not overcome their deficits. With other children, there may be more subtle problems such as autism or milder difficulties with cognitive processes or lack of ability to relate to or have empathy for others. Now I am not speculating that this is the case with Mr.Topete, but I think it is certainly as viable a possibility as you speculating it was poor parenting without any evidence.
Or perhaps you feel that despite my 25 years as an obstetrician, you are more knowledgeable in this area also as you implied to rdcanning even though he happens to be a nationally recognized expert and speaker in his area of expertise.[/quote]
Excellent point, and one I had not even thought of…
ERM
Thanks. I wouldn’t have expected anyone else to consider this. This is part of the reason we have experts, to think of the unusual, but possible, rather than to jump at the obvious stereotypes.
I have to say, that I look forward to your posts. I find them thoughtful and usually well reasoned albeit from a different perspective from mine.
maybe that is the point, you challenge me to see things from a different perspective.