By Tia Will
As a forward to my perspectives on this tape, I want to address one issue first. Some posters, in response to my previous articles, have stated that the tapes are now released unedited in their entirety. I believe this is inaccurate. In order to portray this accurately, I have indicated when there is a cut. I have again stated the time on the tape the quotes occur, who is speaking and have prefaced my own comments with an asterisk.
The interviews with Melissa Farrell, Director of Research Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, while portrayed as a single intact interview are clearly selected and edited from two completely separate conversations as seen by the different settings, one against a blank wall in what is probably an office and the other in a restaurant. The Daleiden group does not make this distinction and switches back and forth to juxtaposition portions of conversations from different times and in different contexts.
24 seconds: Melissa Farrell Director of Research Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast:
“If we alter a process and we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers,…It’s all just a matter of line items.”
*This statement by Dr. Farrell includes an obvious edit to exclude her full comment.
There is then a cut away to a written statement of illegality of knowingly transferring any human fetal tissue for valuable consideration.
44 sec: In public comment at a meeting or hearing: Abby Johnson – Former Clinical Director Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast stated: “$100 per specimen, 50 specimens/day, $5000/$120,000 dollars per month. That is certainly not recouping cost .”
* This statement is in error since each procedure costs far more than $100 to perform at 30 minutes of MA time, at least 20 minutes each of physician time on two separate days, and at least 10 minutes of nursing time for direct patient counseling and care alone.
- Physician time – $ 70/hour
- Nurse time – $30/hour
- MA time -$12/hour
Obviously these are estimates that will vary by location of the affiliate, but I believe them to be representative. Rounding low this would come to approximately $50 in personnel time alone. This does not include equipment or medication costs, tissue processing and packaging costs, counseling time for the donation (which would require about another 20 minutes of MA time), nor cost for rent and/or building ownership and/or maintenance. So one can see that Ms. Johnson’s statement is inaccurate even using the $100/per procedure estimate which was the high end of the range quoted by Dr. Nucatola as ranging from $30-$100/ per specimen. So by her own estimate, Ms. Johnson’s testimony would have PP operating at a loss.
1:02: Cut back to Melissa Farrell: “In terms of areas that I can contribute to the organization both locally and nationally would be the diversification of revenue streams.”
* Factual statement explaining her role and having absolutely nothing to do with the alleged “selling of fetal tissue.”
During office interview
1:41: “Our organization…..has been doing research for many, many, many years.”
*No claim is made that the research conducted is on fetal tissue, since of course, it is not. The research done by PP is on issues of reproductive health.
3:03: When asked if specific tissue can be obtained intact Dr. Merrill replies:“Yes, I think we can, I mean some of it is really happenstance because you know, sometimes as the procedure is happening, the procedure itself is generally standardized and so just depending on the patient’s anatomy, how many weeks, how it is placed in the uterus we are going to potentially have some that will be more or less intact and some that will not be.” She further notes that this is the purview of the doctors and that they would have to be consulted with regard to what procedures could be used to attempt to obtain an intact specimen.
*As I explained previously, obtaining an intact specimen is actually better for the patient as well as it is usually less traumatic to the maternal tissues to have the fetal tissue removed intact .
4:42: The female interviewer has introduced the subject of compensation, saying: “So we have, for specific specimens, the cost would be higher.”
5:02: Ferrell replies: “We can work it out in the context of, obviously the procedure itself is more complicated. So that anything that we integrate into that procedure, without having you cover the procedural cost is going to be higher.”
* Clear statement that it is not the tissue that is going to be charged more for, but that any compensation is for the time and expertise required to obtain the tissue.
5:20: Ferrell: “So anything of a higher gestational age there is more opportunity for complication, there is more administrative time involved, sometimes the procedures are longer so that anything that we piggyback onto that for collection purposes, obviously would have to reflect that additional time cost, administrative burden.”
*Another clear statement that this is not the tissue being sold but rather compensation for the time of the personnel involved
5:36: Female interviewer states: “So that our compensation that‘s higher to you for our specific intact specimen could be built into that.”
*Implication is that the compensation is for the specimen even though Ms. Ferrell has just stated specifically that it is for the additional time and expertise involved.
6:17 Cut back to the restaurant interview
Female interviewer states :
“Back to your financial background, I think that’s what …..You can see the benefit of this financially. Just having had that background , and seeing how a – it’s gold out there. And, it could be so beneficial. So I’m glad that you have that background, so that you see the financial benefits of – getting the right specimen and getting it intact and if you change the procedure just a little bit within –the framework that you said so that we’re talking about it the same way, and the right way, but the financial gain, and being, to your staff knowing this is the end we’re gong for—“
* Please note that these are the words of the female interviewer, not those of Ms. Farrell.
Change of procedure is the norm in medicine as one technique may prove to be sufficient for one woman’s care, but not for that of another patient. The only requirements are that the physician remain within the standard of care and that the patient be appropriately consented for each eventuality that may arise during the procedure.
Ms. Farrell’s reply including a statement that her research division is the largest in PP is then truncated so that we cannot hear her response and there is an immediate cut away back to the office interview.
7:26: Female interviewer: “If that provider is needing to change that technique a little bit and I know I’m going against my side of this, but I’m okay with it, no I want you to be paid per specimen.
Ms. Ferrell: “Mhm mhm.”
*While Ms. Ferrell makes no clear agreement or disagreement at this point, it is clear from her previous comments that any compensation in her mind is for staff time and processing of each specimen, not for the body parts themselves.
8:16: “And if we are able to obtain intact fetal cadavers and can make it part of the budget that any dissections are this, and splitting the specimens into different shipments is this, I mean its just a matter of line items.”
*It is clear that the “line items “ that Ms. Ferrell is referencing are the processes, time and expertise to prepare the specimens, not the specimens themselves. At no time does she discuss the relative worth of thymus, or liver, or neural tissue. For her it is always about the cost of acquisition and processing, despite the Daleiden group’s efforts to make it sound as though she is referencing specific fetal tissues.
8:28: After an obvious edit, the male interviewer asks: “And so are they requesting just liver, or liver-thymus or just long bone?”
Ferrell: “Let’s see. Everything CNS, brain, kidney, thymus, liver, bone marrow, hepatic stem cells.
Followed by inaudible portion of conversation between male interviewer and Ms. Ferrell.
9:02: Male interviewer: “So, for a study like that where we could provide the whole cadaver, they could take whatever they want.”
To which Ms. Ferrell agrees.
*This addresses a point made by a poster previously about why not submit the entire specimen intact. This is the policy for research institutes that desire multiple different tissues for varying projects within their institution, but would not be an adequate process for those who are located in different geographically separated institutions. Again, the issue of line items is a referent to the processes involved in obtaining and transporting the specimens, not the value of the individual tissues themselves as the Daleiden group is attempting to imply.
9:32: Ms. Ferrell states, while looking at her computer screen: “Oh, and I was wrong. They want $ 120.00.
*There is no reference to who wants the $120 and the tape is edited out immediately after the male interviewer’s statement of surprise. The tape then cuts to the clinical pathology laboratory with a disclaimer that some viewers may find this content disturbing.
9:55: Male interviewer asks if there are any fresh specimens that they can view. A technician states that they are “all mixed up in a bag. If I had known, I could have saved something.”
*Now, I agree that those not in the medical field are likely to find this disturbing. But the question arises – what is the more positive outcome? Is it for the tissue to end up in a bag to be destroyed, or is it a greater good for it to be donated for research, regardless of how one feels about the reason for it being available ?
10:05: Not to be deterred, the female interviewer then pushes to see that material just to get “a visual” anyway. “Is that possible?”
The technician then says, “Hmm, let me see.”
Male interviewer then suggests that they would just like to get a look to see the relative intactness on a typical day.
The technician states: “You are not going to see anything intact today because the way we collect the tissue, it all gets put into one container.”
*Obviously this is not a for-profit venture based on fetal parts or the tissue would always be preserved separately and as intact as possible in case it could be sold.
They then proceed at the urging of the interviewers to bring out the tissue obtained from an 18-week abortion in which there is a large amount of tissue fragmentation which allows the male interviewer (same man as in the previous tapes) to act as though he is uncertain about the identity of various tissues (which on previous tapes he has been seen pointing out to the doctor).
*This is, in my opinion an obvious attempt to provide those “disturbing images” and has no relationship to the legality of Planned Parenthood’s processes.
12:52: The Planned Parenthood representative then describes the role of the sensitivity of the patient to the procedure and the role that this plays in the ability to obtain an intact specimen.
*Here it is important to note that the kind of anesthesia used is conscious sedation. This means that the patient has an IV through which pain medications are administered (which cross through the placenta thus also sedating the fetus). However, because she is not intubated, the amount of drug is limited to the amount that will leave that patient in full control of her airway and breathing. This is less risky for the patient, but may mean she will experience some pain during the procedure albeit it much less than with just oral medications. She also discusses, as I have previously noted, that the least number of passes needed for complete evacuation of the pregnancy will result in less maternal discomfort. Thus, more intact tissues extraction is preferable and safer for the mother.
15:22: After an obvious break in the tape,
Female interviewer asks: “Any idea why the other affiliates in Texas think it’s illegal?”
PP representative says looking puzzled “No….really ?”
*Of note, we do not hear what is said immediately prior to this exchange so it is unclear what the “it” is in this conversation.
The tape ends with the technician, obviously trying to be helpful to the Daleiden group who pressured her to bring out the tissue in the first place, asking : “Do you want to see some more ?”
My impressions after viewing this tape:
- The tape is not a complete unaltered video but rather a compilation of selected comments from four different events, an office interview, a clip of a presentation before a civic panel of some kind not identified, a luncheon, and a laboratory inspection.
- They have been clearly been cut and pasted to support the presuppositions of the Daleiden group.
- In the case of the laboratory inspection, the tape has been altered to be as disturbing as possible, with the Daleiden representatives picking through and holding up tissue fragments in ways that I have never seen done by any medical personnel. This is in my opinion the only truly disturbing display of disrespect for the tissue shown during all of the tapes to date and it was done by the Daleiden group, not the doctors or technicians of Planned Parenthood.
- This tape, like the others, while presenting information and visuals that will clearly be disturbing to some, including myself as above, provides no factual information that anything illegal is occurring at all.
Tia has avoided at least two reoccurring issues that many consider illegal.
1. Altering a medical procedure in order to get different / better “fetal tissue”.
2. Funds recouped are only supposed to cover transportation costs and storage; the monies they receive far outweigh those costs.
For example, there was the 3rd party which came into the Planned Parenthood clinic, and apparently did the sorting, storage, and transportation themselves, meaning that there would be little or no storage or transportation costs.
TBD, you have provided no evidence (other that hearsay) that 1. has ever happened. Regarding your example for 2. you have yet to show any evidence that any such events have ever happened and/or any evidence that if they have actually happened that any sorting, storage or transportation costs have been either billed or paid.
With the above said, the fact that people like yourself continue to cast such aspersions around willy nilly is precisely why I call for simultaneous, open, transparent investigations of both Daleiden and PP.
So I gather you’re calling the doctors liars? They repeatedly state that this is what they can and do do.
Further, if they then lied about this, what else have they lied about?
TBD, no I see no lying on their part. I am listening to the very clear words of the doctors with the benefit of over 30 years experience in the health care industry (with extensive experience in the finance, patient accounting, decision support, administration, business development and information technology components of health care delivery). Your understanding of what the doctors said is based on no such depth or breadth of the subject they were talking about. You have heard what you want to hear, nothing more, nothing less.
With that said, the fact that people like yourself continue to act as you are doing here, is precisely why I call for simultaneous, open, transparent investigations of both Daleiden and PP.
Bring it on.
What are you accusing Daleiden of?
I’m not accusing Daleiden of anything. I leave that to the authorities after they complete their investigation. Accusations are frequently driven by subjective emotions. Investigations are driven by objective facts. I will wait until we have a full complement of objective facts with which to make an informed decision.
One observation, your choice of the words “Bring it on” gives the impression that you see this issue as a battle/competition. If that impression is correct then there is a significant disconnect between your warrior mentality and my attempt to look at the issues both dispassionately and objectively, and as a result you are in effect competing on your chosen battlefield alone.
TBD
I have not avoided either of these points. I have written three articles and each time I have dealt with these points directly.But I do not mind repeating.
1. “Altering a medical procedure in order to get different / better “fetal tissue”.
Most medical procedures have more than one way in which they can be accomplished. Doctors frequently update their techniques or the instruments that they use for any number of different reasons. One way may be that a technique change may be more comfortable for the patient. This is the case with the hand held aspirator instead of the mechanical suction device as I discussed in the first article. In my system many, but not all of our offices and procedural suites have changed to this method because it is better for the patient. It would appear that PP has at least in the California offices being discussed in the first tape had not changed yet to this improved technique. It also happens that the new technique which is gentler on the patient is also gentler on the tissue and provides a more intact specimen. As long as the patient is appropriately consented there is nothing at all wrong with this change from the older to the newer device. I have frequently changed techniques in my career to get a better outcome. One example would be the use of a different technique which is better for delivering an intact placenta which I would use when a thorough rather than cursory inspection of the placenta in a term delivery was felt desirable.
2. “Funds recouped are only supposed to cover transportation costs and storage; the monies they receive far outweigh those costs.”
This is inaccurate. There is nothing at all that states that only transportation and storage can be recouped. The law stipulates that the tissue cannot be sold but that those obtaining, processing, storing and transporting the tissue can be compensated for their expenses. PP has been very clear that they are accepting compensation only for the costs of obtaining, processing and transferring the tissue and that if the Daleiden group were to perform all of these functions then the compensation would be zero. I have stated this clearly several times.
It’s good to know that so far at least 11 states are launching investigations into the Planned Parenthood fetal tissue sale scandal.
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/07/29/florida-becomes-11th-state-to-investigate-planned-parenthood-for-selling-aborted-babies/
California has been talking about it but I don’t trust that a fair investigation would take place here being what our state politics are.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/07/31/indiana-clears-planned-parenthood-of-wrongdoing/204705
Indiana: cleared.
Massachusetts: cleared.
Two down.
Interesting, neither the Indiana or Massachusett’s Planned Parenthood clinics even have a fetal organ donation program. So no surprise that both states found no wrongdoing.
Yes, makes you wonder why they even investigated them, huh? Governor Pence (Rep) ordered the investigation in Indiana. Attorney General in Massachusetts responded to a request from a Republican state legislator.
Weren’t you just saying something about wedge issues on another thread?
CNN’s Cuomo Challenges Earnest No ‘High Ethical Standards’ in Planned Parenthood Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2ieuxw4em8
CNN’s Chris Cuomo: “… fetal baby parts for science or for whatever reason is not good …”
TBD, looking at the video you provided, the words above really got to the heart of the issue. Do you agree with Cuomo’s statement above? Is scientific research with human body parts bad in your opinion?
A staunch liberal acknowledges that these tapes sees no “high ethical standards”. Ugly stuff.
You didn’t answer my questions. Are you afraid to answer them?
Matt, if there is no other option, and the donated fetal parts are obtained legally, with the Mother’s consent, not under duress, sure.
1, But as we see below (3-4 posts down) in the new Planned Parenthood tape, a former technician alleges that fetal parts were taken without consent and taken under duress.
2. We’ve established that fetal tissue donations are a multi-million-dollar revenue stream for PP, so they have motivation to continue or increase this revenue.
3. The link immediately below reveals that the majority of medical advances were made using adult stem cells, not fetal stem cells (derived from the liver). In addition, we are able to obtain stem cells from the umbilical cords of newborns, which seems to also reduce or eliminate the need for fetal tissues.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421318/research-planned-parenthood-providing-organs-increasingly-outdated-researchers-say
TBD
I have no idea what you think this clip of Cuomo being interviewed adds to the conversation about the legality of the actions of Planned Parenthood. It is the legality of the actions that is the only relevant issue here. The issue is not whether one sees the collection of fetal tissue as “base stuff, ugly stuff” as the interviewer states. Much of what I have done in my career would be called “ugly” by some. A little of what I have done might be called “base” by those who do not approve of using human cadavers for educational purposes. Some of what I have done would be called immoral by those who do not believe in transferring tissue from one human to another as in skin grafting or transfusion the latter of which I have ordered a great deal of.
In 30 years, I have not seen any tissue fetal or otherwise, handled with the blatant disrespect shown for it by the members of the Daleiden group on tape 5 . It takes a lot to disgust me, and yet this callous handling of tissue in order to get “the best shot” I found abhorrent. This was done, not to provide the tissue for any positive purpose, such as potentially life saving research, but with the intent to shock and horrify. They were successful. But not for the reasons they hoped. What this demonstrated to me was the depths to which they were willing to sink in order to accuse others. It is one thing to edit luncheon interviews to portray doctors as “selling baby parts” despite their consistent statements that they are not. It is quite another to show such disrespect for the tissue itself.
So although you did not ask this question of me, I will be happy to answer.
“What are you accusing Daleiden of?”
1. Both slander and libel by verbally and in print creating “false witness” to the activities of Planned Parenthood by editing these interviews to create the impression that PP executives are making statements that are the opposite of their actual words heard in context.
2. Impersonation of a business person in order to obtain secretly taped interviews in settings in which the individual would have had the expectation of privacy. ( Such as their own offices)
3. Using false IDs in business settings pursuant to #1
4. Setting up nonexistent companies pursuant to #2
5. Disrespect for the very tissue he claims that PP is “selling” as witnessed on tape 5.
6. Zealotry. Please notice that I have never said that Mr. Dalieden does not himself believe that what he is doing is righteous. But please also understand that as a doctor, I see the provision of highly valuable tissue, that would otherwise simply be discarded, for use in scientific research as righteous.
However, what either Mr. Dalieden or I believe about the righteousness or the morality of the actions should be beside the point. The issue should be whether or not any illegal action has occurred and so far, he has not demonstrated this at all. But then, his actions on tape 5 show clearly that this was never his intent. He got exactly what he wanted, a visceral, highly emotional reaction to the donation of fetal tissue and to abortion itself in an attempt to further hamper Planned Parenthood and if possible to shut it down.
For those of you who are opposed to abortion and have your objections on the basis, of religion please ask yourselves if you would want your right and ability to obtain a transfusion to be blocked by overly zealous Jehovah’s Witnesses falsely claiming that doctors are selling blood which the Bible clearly states ( to them) is immoral to place in another human being. Or more obscurely, whether a group of Hmong activists should be able to block women from obtaining Cesareans by framing the issue as doctors “selling women’s souls” for profit since their religion teaches them that unless a spiritual guide is present to keep the soul within the body, then the soul will be released from the body at the time of Cesarean and will wander forever without the ability to re enter the body. So should a woman and baby be allowed to die in childbirth ( a not uncommon outcome prior to Cesarean) because someone believes that at a least her soul and body will be intact at the time of death if they can only stop Cesarean’s from occurring.
Now some of you are probably thinking how ridiculous. How could anyone believe that ? I would postulate that they believe that for exactly the same reason that some of you believe that life begins at conception. They believe it without any substantiating evidence because that is what they were taught. This is why I believe it is so critically important that we not use our own religious beliefs to determine the actions of others. Freedom of religion is one of the bedrocks of our society. Freedom of religion, not freedom to practice the Christian faith, or any other specific faith, but freedom to act according to our own principles within the law.
So until Mr. Daileden demonstrates that a law has been broken, I find it highly unethical, if not illegal, for him to attempt the destruction of PP with his web of lies, regardless of the sincerity of his belief.
Tia, I wouldn’t find skin grating “ugly” to help a burn patient or other suffering from an illness. Our family has known doctors, and we’d heard that they tried – in most cases – to treat cadavers with respect. I think I recall stories about some medical students not treating a few with respect.
The “blatant disrespect” displayed in tape 5 was conducted or allowed by Planned Parenthood, right? Their facility, their specimens, their fetal parts.
I think these ugly tapes should at least allow the Mother to designate that these tissues not be donated to “science”, given the actions of PP.
Are you as upset by illegal immigrants using fake IDs to sneak into the country, get jobs they don’t qualify for, etc.?
Good point TBD. After all, we should all have to obey the laws.
Friends have witnessed applicants for food handling jobs taking an online test with the State with a friend providing the answers to the applicant (all in Spanish).
More proof of state incompetence? Why not simply have in-person tests around the state once a month?
“The “blatant disrespect” displayed in tape 5 was conducted or allowed by Planned Parenthood, right? Their facility, their specimens, their fetal parts.”
No. I do not believe that PP is in any way responsible for the actions of the Daleiden team. The technicians had already pointed out to them that they had no intact tissue and the Daleiden team, without informing them that they only wanted to see the tissue so that they could pull it apart to present as gruesome a picture as possible. Do you hold yourself responsible for all of the actions of the guests in your house of which you may not approve, but which you had no forewarning that were going to occur ?
“I think these ugly tapes should at least allow the Mother to designate that these tissues not be donated to “science”, given the actions of PP.:
The mother has always had the right to donate or not donate as she sees fit. These tapes change nothing with regard to maternal options And I have no idea what you are trying to convey by placing the word “science” in quotes, as you probably are aware that stem cells and fetal tissues are highly valuable in medical research whether or not you approve their use for these purposes.
“Are you as upset by illegal immigrants using fake IDs to sneak into the country, get jobs they don’t qualify for, etc.?:
Of course I am since I believe the need for lying, sneaking and cheating is evidence of a failure of ability to provide for oneself. one should ever have the need to break the law to provide for their children or to live in the case of those who are true asylum seekers. Have I ever said anything that would make you believe that I feel otherwise ?
Tia wrote “The mother has always had the right to donate or not donate as she sees fit.”
The new Planned Parenthood (Tape 6?) Episode 2 claims that Planned Parenthood / StemExpress LLC did not honor the wishes of Mothers. The allegation is that they repeatedly, as part of daily business, disregarded the decision of Mothers to not donate.
See link to new video below. I believe the new allegations should prompt much more detailed investigations and may require depositions under sworn testimony to get to the truth.
Tia question: If someone comes into my house and starts going through closets, or goes into a bedroom that had a closed door and was off limits, and they were right in front of me, yes, I would set the boundaries. If they persisted, the might be shown the door.
“If someone comes into my house and starts going through closets, or goes into a bedroom that had a closed door and was off limits, and they were right in front of me, yes, I would set the boundaries. If they persisted, the might be shown the door.”
Wow, hope you are never wrongfully accused of a crime you absolutely did not commit, then forced to have cops in your home during your probation period. They would come into your home, go through your closets, open the closed door of your bedroom, right in front of you, while you sat in handcuffs next to the framed picture of your dad graduating the police academy, and the other picture of your sister with President Obama and Vice President Biden. Good luck with showing those cops the door.
TBD
“If someone comes into my house and starts going through closets, or goes into a bedroom that had a closed door and was off limits, and they were right in front of me, yes, I would set the boundaries. If they persisted, the might be shown the door.”
Fair point. Except that we don’t know that this didn’t happen because all we see on the tapes is what the Daleiden group has presented with their “unedited” tapes. Which by the way, I have demonstrated repeatedly are not “unedited” with the exception of the two hour lunch meeting with Dr. Nuctola, all of the others have been highly edited as I have indicated minute by minute in my articles.
Or what if these people in your home have lied to you about their identity. What if they have told you that they are inspectors looking from some dangerous substance that might be in the cupboards that they are not rifling through ? Do you feel that if you believed them, you would still interfere with their activities. Now suppose that they edited your words during the conversation from ” I do not believe that any of that substance has ever been n my home” to read “I do believe that substance has been in my home” ? Do you still feel that you are responsible for their activities under these circumstances which are the exact parallel to what Daleiden has done ?
Tia Will, there are more unedited videos out than just the two you refer to. I know of at least four and wouldn’t doubt that all six have been released. It’s understandable why the Daleidan group has edited the videos, who’s going to sit and watch one to five hours of boring conversation when they can get out the important clips in a shorter video. That’s how the news works, sound bites, and PP sure supplied enough of those. Just go to youtube and type in ‘planned parenthood unedited videos’. There’s one that’s over 5 hours long, get some popcorn and enjoy.
We are barely half way through the Planned Parenthood videos, we’ll learn more in the coming weeks. My assumption is there is more to come, and the defenders will fall in line.
Information is power.
And each one less substantive than the last. This is a public relations exercise. It doesn’t even rise to the level of high school journalism at this point. Take a story about a disgruntled employee to a news desk editor, first questions will be “can you corroborate this? any other witnesses? anyone else on camera to confirm these allegations? a paper trail?” If not, you don’t have a news story.
At this point these tapes are just echoing around in the chambers of the pro-life movement and on sites like Breitbart. Note that Mr. Daleiden prescreened them for House GOP members, in an effort to coordinate the message attacking Planned Parenthood. The goal is to shut down the funding, to shutter abortion clinics. It’s part of a long-term strategy unfolding in many states.
TBD, and soon the judge will rule on the three StemExpress videos that are currently being suppressed.
BP, and what are the odds Valerie Jarrett has made a few calls to continue to suppress them?
Probably about zero. What is your obsession with this one particular adviser to the president?
New Planned Parenthood Tape (tape 6?)
Human Capital – Episode 2: Inside the Planned Parenthood Supply Site (no graphic images)
New Allegations
1. Former Procurement Technician Holly alleges that not all Mothers / patients give consent to donate their fetal tissue.
– She makes the reasonable point of how would they know.
– Consent sought / demanded while women are in distress or throwing up from abortion medication?
– Holly: “It (Consent) was not an option, it was a demand.”
2. Unlicensed Planned Parenthood employees drawing blood.
3. Blood samples being taken without Consent (I’m unclear if this is Mother or the baby’s blood)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABzFZM73o8M
Beyond these potential violations of law, there are some other disturbing commentary.
Fresno had over 40 abortions a day, a busy clinic that was depressing; women crying and screaming. If women are screaming on a regular basis, why is this? Are they being given inadequate medication, or no medication?
Are women being treated like cattle / not being given proper medication in Fresno because they are poor or often Latina?
Women throwing up from abortion medication and / or the “procedure”.
Holly alleges a Dr. Berman conducts abortions in a frighteningly fast manner which doesn’t seem to denote being caring, deliberate, or thorough. She portrays him as being angry.
Next Tape: Custom Abortions for Superior Products
Thanks TBD. It takes courage for this young lady to step forward and blow the whistle.
She probably has to be in hiding. We need to corroborate or disprove her serious allegations, but I am sure that Planned Parenthood already has their crisis communications / political consultants / lawyers covering their tracks. Attorney General Kamala Harris has already shown her true colors, launching an investigation while ignoring the serious and growing allegations against Planned Parethood and StemExpress LLC.
TBD
“She probably has to be in hiding.”
You may not know that the executives of StemExpress have received threats on their lives and are truly living in fear. I do not know what courage Holly would have had to have summoned to make her statements. I am unaware of any choice advocates or abortion providers shooting those who oppose them. That is certainly not true in reverse since there is a long tradition of shooting and bombing workers at health clinics which provide abortion amongst other services. If you know of any gynecologists who have gone out and shot a so called “right to lifer”, please forward me the link.
The women who are bothered as they walk into clinics probably feel like they need to go in hiding, too. The women who work in those clinics and have to field the anonymous cowardly telephone threats probably want to go into hiding, too. But they don’t. They courageously go to work every day & unselfishly help thousands of families who need health care. And they don’t push their religious beliefs on anyone.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/08/14/3691784/faith-groups-defend-planned-parenthood/
Refreshing to read these faith leaders are acting faith-ful. Not like the cowardly terrorists who call in bomb threats to clinics & harass teenage girls on the sidewalk in front of PP, or place huge billboards in low income neighborhoods in AZ. (Wish they’d get a clue, wealthy women also get abortions. Wonder why no billboards in the upscale communities?)
TBD
I haven’t seen the tape yet and won’t have time to do so today. My initial comments on the items that you have highlighted.
“Former Procurement Technician Holly alleges that not all Mothers / patients give consent to donate their fetal tissue.” * Unless there is proof of this, I would take this accusation with a grain of salt since this would be illegal as consent is needed for the disposal of any tissue by any medical organization or provider. If this were indeed occurring, there would have been no need for the elaborate rouse that the Daleiden group has resorted to in order to obtain the highly edited tapes. They could simply have contacted the women that she claims that she has direct knowledge of and asked them if they had or had not provided consent.
“Unlicensed Planned Parenthood employees drawing blood.“Consent sought / demanded while women are in distress or throwing up from abortion medication?” No, as Dr. Nucatola pointed out, and is always the case, consent is obtained prior to the procedure. In the case of fetal tissue, the order of operations is as follows :
1. Counseling and consent are obtained for the procedure itself. 2. Counseling and consent is done regarding the donation of fetal tissue only after step 1 is complete. 3. The termination procedure is performed only after consents 1 & 2 are completed for those women wanting to donate.
“Unlicensed Planned Parenthood employees drawing blood.” I do not know, but sincerely doubt that this is true. In this case we do need to consider the source of the information and whether or not her information is accurate. Bear in mind that that Holly, the Procurement Technician, was an employee not of PP but rather of the processing and transportation company ( StemExpress I believe) and therefore would not have been apprised of the “unlicensed” states of the phlebotomists employed by PP who are probably the medical assistants .While many systems do not utilize medical assistants for blood draws, they are fully trained and capable of doing this function which is within their scope of practice. I would not expect her to know this.
“If women are screaming on a regular basis, why is this? Are they being given inadequate medication, or no medication?”
First, we have no idea if this was “on a regular basis”, a one time event, or most likely, somewhere in between. Anyone who has had any significant exposure to a clinic situation knows that people’s pain and discomfort tolerance varies widely. I have had women cry and scream under the routine conditions of office gynecology such as performing a Pap smear or putting in an IUD or performing what I would consider a totally routine biopsy in which I think that I have used the usual and customary amount of analgesia for the procedure, but the patient’s experience does not match my expectation. A common comment from the patient afterward is “I am so sorry, I screamed. It really wasn’t that bad. I just wasn’t expecting that.” Another common post procedure comment that it appears has not been chosen to be put forth is “that wasn’t nearly as bad as I expected”. I doubt that we will be hearing that comment from the Daleiden group.
“Women throwing up from abortion medication and / or the “procedure”.”
Throwing up, either in response to medication or to the procedure itself, whether an abortion, an IUD placement, a sampling of the lining of the uterus to rule out cancer, is not unusual. One of the precautions we take after any of these procedures is to get the patient up very slowly so that she will not vomit or pass out after these types of procedures involving the cervix and uterus. We also take the precaution of having an emesis bag available because vomiting is not uncommon.
“Holly alleges a Dr. Berman conducts abortions in a frighteningly fast manner which doesn’t seem to denote being caring, deliberate, or thorough. She portrays him as being angry.”
Holly’s perception may or may not be accurate. Doing a procedure fast is actually in the patient’s best interest as long as the practitioner is competent and acting in the patient’s best interest. Less surgical time usually is associated with a faster recovery, less blood loss and less discomfort overall. Uncomplicated Cesareans typically take about 30 to 40 minutes in experienced hands. I have seen one done by a highly skilled surgeon in under six minutes. This was life saving for the baby and did not cause the mother any more harm than would have been sustained in the more traditional time frame. The rapidity of the surgery may or may not be appropriate, but I do not believe that it is within the training nor scope of a phlebotomist to determine what an appropriate time for the procedure is whether or not she found it “frighteningly fast”.
So, my overall response to your post is that the only valid claim here would be whether or not women are being consented appropriately. If all we have is Holly’s suspicion that this might not be the case, I think that the case is exceedingly thin since she obviously has moral objections to the tissue procurement process which is of course her right. However, once again I do not believe that it is the right of the Daleiden group to twist information with which they are provided in good faith order to bring down a major health care provider for women which is of course the obvious goal even if all of PP actions are ultimately found to be completely legal.
So we have the opinions of those who advocate for abortion, and those who advocate for life, and you embrace the former in almost a blind fashion.
I would think any unbiased observer would say that we at least need a thorough investigation by a non-partisan source. (I am not sure that Ms. Kamala Harris’ charges would fit that bill.) And we may need more regulations.
I also think any unbiased observer would say that Holly’s allegations are quite plausible, especially given the financial incentives to both Planned Parenthood and StemExpress. Especially given the slip shod persona from the “executives” at Planned Parenthood where they repeatedly come off as cavalier and continually laugh at the “procedures” they conduct.
Tia, have you or a relative ever worked for Planned Parenthood?
If you’re going to ask personal questions of others on the Vanguard, are you prepared to stop posting anonymously and use your own name?
OK Don, strike the question, but Tia has very public about her line of work and has been very educational and less political at times (i.e., long-term contraception, which I support).
Pretty sure Tia has already stated she does not now or ever worked for P.P. I have stated I worked closely with several PP’s in CA when I worked for W.I.C. and the women I dealt with at P.P. were exemplary public servants. Not government workers, but public servants nonetheless. Why not go volunteer there for a day, and see for yourself? You may even have a change of heart.
My take, from reading all of Tia’s articles so far on this issue, as well as all of the comments, is that far from being a “biased observer” (what you seem to be implying here), she has taken lots of her time to write clear, well-supported information about each of the videos so far. Her articles have used her knowledge of the medical side of this issue (knowledge which I highly doubt the vast majority of her commenters have).
It seems like no matter what kind of evidence she brings up, several commenters just keep ignoring it and instead say things like, “Let’s just wait until the next video comes out–I’m sure they will have more revelations.” And when she calls into question what are clearly strategic edits in these videos, the response is the same from these commenters.
Plus, I have a hard time believing that many of you would support Planned Parenthood even if the -only- thing they did was provide women with contraception and other preventative healthcare. That’s just judging from several “Women should just keep their legs closed” comments I’ve seen several people post on various threads.
Are you going to be so quick to welcome a ‘thorough investigation by a non-partisan source’ for the Daleiden group, also?
I haven’t seen any of these “keep their legs closed” comments. Links?
The full videos are available (unedited), and we can quibble about small details … but these doctors laughing and joking while they collect their one-percenter $400,000 per year salary at the expense of these unborn children is rather unbecoming.
We have a serious allegation here that bears investigation. We have an eyewitness Whistleblower stating that fetuses / fetus tissue was taken – on a normal, daily basis – without consent.
That was Frankly.
“We have a serious allegation here that bears investigation.”
we might have a serious allegation, but it’s not clear that it’s a credible one.
I have no doubt that Tia is a stickler for protocol, and does everything by the book. I’m sure she is super careful and diligent.
I am also quite sure that in a city with a large poor Latino population, that a poor Latina in a backwater neighborhood down an alley to the Planned Parenthood building, that she could be steamrolled or simply ignored by the local fiefdoms. Given the strong family bonds in many Latino families, and the strong Catholic faith, I’m sure clinics like this are especially emotional. I really don’t see such a young lady, often quite vulnerable, standing up to the local Planned Parenthood or StemExpress capitalist. Unless she came with a sister or husband, I can see the steamroll as clear as day. And even with emotional support, how would a young lady’s wishes be guaranteed when the “tissue” is carted off to the next room? If it goes in the trash, $0, but if it goes in a cooler, there is $400 or $600?
Or how about the undocumented Latina? Will she stand up to them?
This is the organization Margaret Sanger helped found.
TBD, the issue of high levels of emotion that you describe in your post (strong family bonds and strong Catholic faith) apply overwhelmingly to the “poor Latina’s” decision whether or not to have an abortion at all. In that kind of emotionally-charged decision-making environment, any consideration by the patient, the family members, and/or the Catholic Church of whether or not tissue should/could be donated are going to be way, way, way way back in the deep dark recesses of the background. The chances that Stem Express will be present during that “abortion yes” or “abortion no” decision process are somewhere between slim and none, and slim has left the building. In fact it is quite possibly a violation of HIPAA (the Healthcare Information Portability and Accountability Act) passed into law in 1996.
When I got my MBA from Wharton, one of the more important lessons was “Think Like an Income Statement” which illustrated that wise fiscal decisions weigh the three components of an Income Statement … Revenues, Expenses, and Bottom-line Profits. Both the premise and the details of the final sentence of your first paragraph is “unwise” because it looks only at Revenues when it compares $0 to $400 or $600. A quick look at the costs that make up the Expenses in your three scenarios shows that they are $0 to $400 or $600. As a result the bottom-line in your three scenarios is $0 to $0 or $0.
Your attempt to fabricate realities that support your position is very much the same as Mr. Daleiden’s attempts to fabricate realities that support his position.
The other thing you are attempting to do is make the exception the rule.
Or maybe Trump.
“…I have a hard time believing that many of you would support Planned Parenthood even if the -only- thing they did was provide women with contraception and other preventative healthcare.”
Agreed. It all comes down to the fact that some people blame unmarried women who enjoy sex for getting pregnant, even though a man was also involved. Perhaps if a man could get pregnant, we wouldn’t be having any of these discussions? Perhaps an infallible contraception would have already been invented. Perhaps if a man was raped and that resulted in an unwanted pregnancy, solutions would already be in place.
Matt, I’m sorry, I mis-spoke. I should have known that Planned Parenthood and StemExpress are as law abiding and above-board as Hillary Clinton and her homebrew email server.
It defies logic to assume that every Planned Parenthood location has the same standards, the same quality, the same procedures, and the same volume.
In numerous other discussions we hear allegations about how poor people are taken advantage of, how disadvantaged people face pressures, how Latinos/as face discrimination, allegations of how undocumented immigrants face pressures and discrimination and language barriers, and now all of a sudden none of those issues apply to the angelic Planned Parenthood.
On top of that, we have a new allegation that fetuses / fetal tissues were taken illegally without informed consent. I see a lot of extraneous words were used while making this new allegation a side discussion.
Further, StemExpress has a huge profit motive, and Planned Parenthood has a revenue motive.
TBD
You obviously have not read anything that I have written to date with any care. I have previously stated on a number of occasions that I am the only member of my family to have ever gone to college let alone worked at a Planned Parenthood. I have stated on each of my articles that I have no association of any kind with Planned Parenthood.
The phrasing of your initial comment virtually precludes you from making any unbiased judgement. You dichotomize your two groups into those who advocate for abortion and those who advocate for life. You leave out those who define human life differently from how you define it. You ignore those whose concern is the legality of the actions of Planned Parenthood rather than blindly accepting your moral imperative over their own. You have never answered my question about end of life issues, turning off life support equipment for those who have no chance of recovery to what they themselves would consider a meaningful life.
And if you are offended by laughter in these settings, surely you must be offended by the male interviewer from the Daleiden group as he has done the bulk of the laughing on most of these tapes.
Frankly, I am more than a little insulted by your not reading my comments and then questioning me on what I have said repeatedly. There is absolutely nothing blind in my commentary. You refuse to acknowledge that I have performed the equivalent of the procedures being discussed hundreds if not thousands of times in my career but rather feel that somehow a phlebotomist or perhaps you know better than I what it involved.
And finally there is absolutely nothing political about my stand. There is only one question here. That question is whether or not Planned Parenthood has done anything illegal. That is the only issue that I am addressing. I am addressing it only in the context of the Daleiden tapes and whether or not they provide evidence of illegal actions on the part of Planned Parenthood. So far, based on my direct experience with these procedures, with dissections, and with tissue donation, I have seen no evidence of anything illegal.
It is of no consequence to me in this discussion whatsoever if you, or I or anyone else finds abortion distasteful, or repugnant, or immoral. We may find it all of those. But none of that has any bearing at all on whether or not there has been any illegal activity and throwing a bunch of emotional hypotheticals into the mix does not change that one iota.
“…poor Latina in a backwater neighborhood down an alley to the Planned Parenthood building, that she could be steamrolled or simply ignored by the local fiefdoms.”
TBD Have you been raised as a Latina? I thought by your postings you were a male. How can you possibly imagine what a Latina could be “steamrolled” into? I’d love for a Latina to reply to this comment, since I am not Latina, but dealt with hundreds of strong, capable Latina’s in my years at WIC and I can assure you unequivocably they rarely allow anyone to “steamroll” them into anything, and they rarely allow anyone to ignore them.
Ladies? Care to tell TBD who steamrolls you?
“if you are offended by laughter in these settings, surely you must be offended by the male interviewer from the Daleiden group as he has done the bulk of the laughing on most of these tapes.”
Many who claim to be offended by laughter are verbal bullies on this website.
TBD
Ok, let’s take your easily manipulated and medically unsophisticated Latina. As much as I do not favor abortion ( as I have stated many times but you don’t seem to care about) I would far rather that she obtain her abortion at a Planned Parenthood where it will be done by a an experienced, licensed physician rather than by a hack leading to her death from hemorrhage or sepsis as was common before legally sanctioned medical practitioners took over this service. And if she is going to have the procedure done in any event, why not allow her the option of donating the tissue if she so desires ?
By the way, having practiced in Fresno and Arizona, I am fairly certain that my experience in dealing with frightened Latinas, whether miscarrying, aborting, or delivering a term pregnancy not by choice but rather by being pressured into keeping the pregnancy is considerably larger than yours.
But I do not actually know that, do I , since you do not have the courage of your convictions to use your name.
I would also rather the Latina have a legay performed safe abortion, than be thrown in jail in another country for getting an illegal one, if she does survive the illegal one. Another issues with the pro-life advocates is the legality of any abortion.
All your proponents of making abortion illegal, except in the case of rape or incest, or the life of the mom being in danger, do you realize this will undoubtedly cause an increase in false accusations of rape and incest?
I realize this is off topic but I do wonder, from reading some of the comments, if certain readers are actually proposing striking down Roe vs. Wade.
https://www.funnyordie.com/videos/71d71cec67/the-harsh-truth-about-planned-parenthood
sisterhood
Thanks for the link and the smiles.
What some posters here do not seem to realize, and maybe have no way to fully appreciate since some are men who of course do not go through any of these procedures, that routine gynecologic care is not comfortable and has a very large “ick” factor for many patients. I face tearful patients in my clinic every day ( yes, literally). There is a box of tissues readily available within reach for this purpose. I had a patient scream and invoke her deity during what I consider a completely benign procedure ( having had it done unto me) for which no analgesia is typically used just yesterday afternoon. These emotional points being speculated about by those with no knowledge have absolutely nothing to do with the legality of any action on the part of anyone, and yet they are being heavily relied upon in the absence of any facts or evidence.
Gynecologist’s do indeed ask patients many questions that they may not be comfortable answering. You will have to take my word that we do this not out of any nefarious or prurient interest but because the answers may prove critical to providing the right care to the right patient at the right time. We provide services that others might feel are immoral on a regular basis. I have ordered thousands of transfusions in my lifetime. I realize that there are those in our society who find this an abomination. I don’t agree with them. If the patient and I are like minded, should I withhold a lifesaving procedure because some find it evil ? If a woman comes into my clinic hemorrhaging and I happen to hear or see a fetal heart beat, should I not evacuate the uterus knowing that the woman and fetus will both die if I do not do so promptly ? Can those of you who are willing to accept the opinion of individuals who have freely admitted to lying to present their biased view of the information simply because their opinion conforms to your own truly not see that this is a matter of line drawing with morality based on your own religious and/or moral beliefs and that others in our society simply do not share those beliefs. What in our constitution or system of laws, or our supposedly freedom based society makes you believe that you have the right to impose your belief system on others ?
Oh, so you are okay with anecdotal videos? Okay, got it.
Dr. Ben Carson, overwhelmingly respected in the medical community, recently had some interesting comments about Planned Parenthood and the videos.
I appreciate that he doesn’t have to reflexively reach for the word racism, doesn’t preach, and suggests that voters become more well informed in certain historical characters / events.
Ben Carson Planned Parenthood Clinics Put In Black Neighborhoods to Control that Population
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/08/12/ben-carson-planned-parenthood-clinics-put-in-black-neighborhoods-to-control-that-population/
Tia, I will always send along a funny video if it can give someone a smile and relieve a little tension.
I loved your comment the other day about different faiths. I loved your examples. ioI have a friend who is almost completely holistic. I’m sure no reader would want her to insist they only use holistic remedies. Another is a Jehovah’s Witness. I doubt many readers would want her to impose her distinct practices on their bodies, either. Same with Mormons.
I adore Pope Francis’ stand against poverty but I left Catholicism because I could not reconcile using contraception and seeing so many other women using contraception but belonging to a faith community that only condones the ryhthm method and abstinence. Look around St. James. How many families do you see with six or eight or even ten children in tow? When I grew up, huge families were quite common in my Irish Catholic parish. Of course Catholic women are now using contraception. They need to come out of the closet, or the confessional, and just admit it.
They need to support Planned Parenthood, too. And if they cannot support PP, they need to at least leave the organization alone to continue its good work.
I believe most Catholics believe there is a massive difference between using contraception against the church’s teaching, and abortion. Abortion is considered killing an innocent life.
Just as there is a massive gap between an early abortion, and a late-term abortion of a baby that is viable outside of the womb.
TBD
“Just as there is a massive gap between an early abortion, and a late-term abortion of a baby that is viable outside of the womb.”
I find your change of person in your two statements very interesting. You first comment is about what “most Catholics” believe. Your second statement is about what you believe. I think that you will find many Catholics and Protestants who see no difference at all between “early abortion” or late term abortion ( which by the way no one does beyond 24 weeks at which point the vast majority of babies will not live outside the uterus” unless it is clearly to save the life of the mother as in the case that I have cited several times.
The very fact that you have changed the “person” in these two sentences is a very apt demonstration on the subjectivity of what people believe about abortion. Again, the issue that should be being addressed is the legality of the actions of PP, not whether or not one happens to agree from their personal bias whether of not
No one does late term abortions? Really?
You don’t recall the house of horrors in Philadelphia with Dr. Kermit Gosnell? He was quoted one time as saying the baby was so big “he could walk me down to the bus stop”.
I believe when the partial-birth abortion was a hot topic, the estimate was that there were approximately 5,000 per year, but abortion clinics didn’t want to provide data with names and personal redacted for review.
The estimate here is that there are 15,000 late term abortions per year, 80& for elective reasons.
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/328629-most-late-term-abortions-are-elective
“…there is a massive difference between using contraception against the church’s teaching, and abortion. Abortion is considered killing an innocent life.”
Some Catholics still believe that life begns with one’s sperm and egg. Therefore, spermicide kills sperm and birth control pills disrupt the egg production. Used to be thought condoms interfered, too, but I’ve heard they’re “allowed” now, due to prevention of spread of std’s. Not sure what’s the problem with IUD’s, since no one is 100% sure why an IUD even disrupts the egg from planting itself…(Dr. Will may be able to explain IUD’s better.)
I guess Catholics are also now “allowed” to use hormones similar to birth control pill hormones to stimulate egg production (Fertility drugs?) That’s confusing.
Some also believe that male masturbation is sinful because the man spills his seed. My friend from El Salvatore, who used to work in the Vatican, likes to tell the story of being an adolescent, confessing masturbation. The priest advised him to see their local prostitute, because then he wouldn’t be spilling his seed without a womb to catch it.
I’m surprised your comment differentiates between sperm, eggs, and fetuses. Also I fail to understand why Catholics do not give a proper Catholic burial, complete with last rights, when a woman miscarries.
Sorry I think I stated something incorrectly. I think a woman has already produced the egg; birth control pills just disrupt the egg from attaching because the woman menstruates and it sheds. Sorry.
Birth control pills prevent pregnancy through several mechanisms, mainly by stopping ovulation. If no egg is released, there is nothing to be fertilized by sperm, and the woman cannot get pregnant. Most birth control pills contain synthetic forms of two female hormones: estrogen and progestin. These synthetic hormones stabilize a woman’s natural hormone levels, and prevent estrogen from peaking mid-cycle. Without the estrogen bump, the pituitary gland does not release other hormones that normally cause the ovaries to release mature eggs.
Above info is copied and pasted from Columbia’s website go ask alice.
http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/how-do-birth-control-pills-work
Your story about the priest recommending a prostitute to a young adolescent boy doesn’t sound plausible. It doesn’t pass the smell or logic test. The bible actually warns of the evils of the act of prostitution.
sisterhood
Your post of 4:20 am is correct.
The main mechanism of the IUDs is to create what is called a hostile cervical mucous which blocks the sperm from reaching the interior of the uterus and thus the Fallopian tubes and therefore not being able to join with the egg.
Thank you. Re: IUD’s, could this be why, long ago in history, some women supposedly placed pebbles inside of them to prevent pregnancy? And why did some prostitutes rarely get pregnant> Is it true they actually built up an immunity to sperm, or perhaps they had illegal abortions? Way back in history? Thank you for confirming that the info re: birth control pills is accurate.
sisterhood
There is a long history of inserting foreign objects such as pebbles, dried fruit pits and the like into the uterus to prevent pregnancy. We do not know the mechanisms of action of all of these implants for obvious reasons. But some appear to have been highly effective.
I do not believe that “an immunity to sperm” has ever been documented. Certainly prostitutes like women from all walks of life have frequently used abortion as a means of ending undesired pregnancies. Sometimes this has been under their own control, in some societies these abortions have been forced or forbidden by whomever is the societally designated decision maker for the woman. In some cases that has been her father, or her husband. Less commonly it has been a family elder or the “alpha female” in charge of the entire families health care. And in some cases, it has been the state. In all such instances, the woman has been portrayed as somehow incapable of arriving at the best decision for herself. I believe that this is at the core of many of the objections to PP. Certain elements of our society believe in the right of men, or those of certain religious conviction to dictate health care for women.
This is part of the reason that I find it so important that we leave the decisions regarding medical care to the individual whose body is involved and the doctor providing the desired care. Just as we do not want a member of a different religion telling us that we cannot receive transfusion or transplant or graft, we should not justify, using our moral code, our dictation of what care others can receive.
One legendary Lothario reportedly used half a lemon for a contraceptive device.
My own experience with my first wife’s second pregnancy is that IUDs can have some downside risk. If that hostile cervical mucous does not fully form and a pregnancy results, the cells of the developing fetus can grow around the IUD and incorporate it into the fetus body as it develops. The unfortunate end result of that process in our case was a spontaneous miscarriage … which needless to say was dangerous to my wife’s health when it happened. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I would have preferred that our chose method of birth control would have been a vasectomy for me rather than an IUD for her. We implemented that choice shortly after she got home from the hospital after the miscarriage.
Note: It has been pointed out to me several times in the past that a vasectomy is not fool proof as a birth control method. Although the number of cases is small by percentage, patients who have had a vasectomy have had their bodies regrow the necessary tissue to reconnect the vasa deferentia.
Matt
I can fully support your statement that the IUDs are not without risk. The overall safest form of contraception ( aside from abstinence) in my opinion is the Nexplanon ( progesterone containing rod placed in the arm) which has as high a degree of efficacy as sterilization, is fully reversible, poses no risk of miscarriage if inadvertently placed in the arm of a pregnant woman and no significant risks to the woman’s health. It’s only significant downside is irregular bleeding which is usually of nuisance value only and resolves readily post removal if the woman desires discontinuation.
I would like to correct one misconception in your post. The IUD does not become incorporated into the body of the developing fetus. The mechanism of miscarriage is either inflammation or a disruption of the placental attachment. This does not alter the fact that the presence of an IUD does lead to an increased chance of miscarriage in the < 1%/year pregnancies that do occur while it is in place.
Matt,
So sorry to read you both had to go through that experience when you wanted the pregnancy.
TBD
“Ben Carson Planned Parenthood Clinics Put In Black Neighborhoods to Control that Population”
Now this is an interesting concept. Regardless of the historical background of Planned Parenthood, as we are frequently told by posters on the philosophic right on this blog, we need to move beyond the past and notions of “victimhood” and look at today’s reality. The reality of today is that PP provides essential health care services to under served populations. This is care that is not being provided or is not being provided with the guarantee of confidentiality due to insurance considerations, not legal ones, by private providers in the community.
The example previously given about the “poor Latina” is incredibly paternalistic. Planned Parenthood does not reach out into the community and pull any poor women off the street in order to pressure them into any decision or procedure. The women who walk in through the doors of PP know what pregnancy means, they know what abortion means. They are not stupid or ignorant or in need of someone to make their decisions for them. This I know not because I have ever been affiliated with PP, but because I have worked for years with similar populations in this area of health care.
Planned Parenthood is not “victimizing” any individual or any community regardless of how Dr. Carson wants to portray it. They are providing essential and sometimes life saving health care for communities that have been underserved because the “private sector” did not find them profitable.
A liberal is arguing against being paternalistic? Hysterical. So now they’re not victims?
Interesting PP review from Yelp, Mariah C: “The best way to describe this clinic is crap. They make it easier for you to get an abortion than they do for you to get continued care once you’ve found out you are pregnant. When my friend decided to terminate her pregnancy they made it very quick and easy, went over everything about the abortion But nothing about after care. She is now still struggling with the decision she made (which is not they’re fault) but they could have offered after care or even explained to her what she would go through.”
For every “house of horrors” anecdote that TBD wants to provide, I can provide an equally horrible example of human life not valued:grown embryo’s,outside the womb. Battered children, battered women, young men returning from Iraq w/ ptsd or an amputation. Abducted children. Children of incest or molestation. Teenagers, perhaps in Alabama, forced to get an illegal abortion because all the low cost clinics in that state were closed…young girls-someone’s daughter, niece, babysitter, bleeding to death from a botched, illegal abortion. Young men, falsely accused, like Damien Echols, rotting in prison on death row. So many examples of other “houses of horror”. Maybe TBD should be equally worried about these examples.
A pregnant woman has the right to choose. She also has the right to donate her tissue to medical research.
Very good points, but I doubt you’ll get any traction.
The truth is that abortions would be greatly reduced if it were mandated that we have accurate, medically-factual, scientifically-backed, non-judgmental comprehensive sex education in the schools. But, I have a sneaking suspicion that many on this board would pearl clutch at that idea.
I realize the video in the following link is is comedy, but it nonetheless provides a helpful comment on the laxity of sex ed in our schools across the nation (and notice the judgmental attitudes expressed in the examples of the “abstinence-only” curricula that Oliver cites (**Advisory: frank sexual terminology used in this video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0
One wrong justifies another?
Planned Parenthood and StemExpress don’t have the right to take fetuses / fetal tissue without informed consent.
Latinos for Planned Parenthood (Facebook)
Latino Outreach New Media Internship
Planned Parenthood Federation of America is hiring an intern for our New York City-based national office to help further the goal of harnessing interactive technologies and social media to provide greater access to Planned Parenthood’s health services, education, and opportunities for involvement in the Latino community.
https://www.facebook.com/PlannedParenthoodEspanol/notes
TBD, I particularly thought this was an interesting quote coming from a liberal:
So now someone on the left agrees with us? I guess we can also now get past slavery, Jim Crow and the many other old outdated liberal victimhood talking points.
Racism rules the day, unless it falls in their backyard.
BP
“So now someone on the left agrees with us? “
Don’t get too excited. Now this someone is demonstrating what I have always said. Each issue needs to be examined separately according to its merits, not on the basis of who is doing the talking. If you are in agreement with that statement, then I guess we are in agreement. So far your posts have led me to believe otherwise.
Yes I agree with “we need to move beyond the past and notions of “victimhood”
“…old outdated liberal” “…an interesting quote coming from a liberal”
Please see my previous comment re: Webster’s definition of “liberal”. Thank you for the compliment.
So a woman’s body has already produced immature eggs that are not ready to be fertilized until they reach maturity. I should not have stated that pills stop egg production.
http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/women-and-their-eggs-how-many-and-how-long
TBD
“The full videos are available (unedited), and we can quibble about small details”
It may be that somewhere the full unedited videos are available. They are not amongst any of the links that have been provided here on the Vanguard. If you have links to these “unedited” tapes, please post them and I will be happy to review them. Those that have been posted here and that I have found on the groups website and through Google search have been anything but “unedited” with the exception of the two hour interview of Dr. Nucatola.
I do not see this as a matter of “quibbling about small details”. I see it as a fundamental distortion of the message being conveyed through in some cases clever, and in other cases clumsy editing. For me, it amounts to lying about what was said and what was intended and these are anything but “small details” when determining the legality of actions.
Youtube and search terms are your friend. I think there are at least 4-5 with times between 1.25 and 5 hours.
Seriously allegations of multiple accounts of illegal behavior have been made which I believe warrant investigations.
“Information is power.”
True information is power. Lies undermine as they are subject to discovery.
We’re in agreement, let’s investigate the claims made!
sisterhood Thanks so much for the link. I found it humbling to remember that no matter where one derives the belief that each of us is empowered to make our own decisions, this belief is core to an equitable society. It lightens my spirit to be reminded that the desire for a just society exists in many forms. The following especially struck me. “As a Christian, I believe that God trusts and empowers each of us to make the decisions that are best for ourselves and our families,” Knox wrote in an email. “In a just and righteous society, women and families are fully empowered with the tools and resources needed to decide whether, when, and under what circumstances to have children and to raise their children in healthy environments. These sustained attacks on health care are no way to build the beloved community that God desires for us.”
TBD
“No one does late term abortions? Really?
Let’s be clear about our definitions. We have used the expression “late term abortions”. This is vague. When I am using the term “late term” I am talking about pregnancies just below 35 weeks, since 36-40 weeks is “term” pregnancy. I suspect that what you are calling “late term” is significantly earlier in the pregnancy.
At this point in time, there is no chance of survival outside the uterus for babies born alive under the age of 22 weeks. Babies between 22-24 weeks rarely live outside the uterus, and with our current level of neonatal care have an approximately 0% chance of neurologically intact survival. At 24 weeks of age ( beyond which abortion is illegal except to save the life of the mother as in the case I have previously mentioned) there is very limited hope for a neurologically intact survival until one reaches the approximate gestational age of 26 to 28 weeks.
So when I say “no one does late term abortions” I am referencing abortions done beyond 24 weeks gestation unless done to save the mother’s life, or illegally. Planned Parenthood is not engaging in the provision of illegal abortions and any ethical provider with the appropriate skills should be acting to save the life of the mother.
TBD
“let’s investigate the claims made”
That is exactly what I have been doing in my articles. Line by line of the full information that has been disclosed by the Daleiden group. Obviously, one cannot examine what has been edited out.
Hey Zaqzaq, where are you? Miss your posts, come back.