In the month that has followed the September 20 stabbing death of Peter Gonzales in the early morning hours at the KetMoRee restaurant and nightclub, the Davis Community has focused on cleaning up a night scene that many believe has become increasingly dangerous.
The Davis City Council passed a moratorium on new large late night bars and then last week approved an exemption in a contested 3-2 vote to allow Blondies to open under strict new conditions, most notably wanding for weapons.
The public knows little of the details of actual attack. A preliminary hearing scheduled for this past Monday was re-scheduled for December. We don’t know if the assailants, one of whom remains at large, were drinking, whether it was a fight that got out of hand, or how the incident transpired.
While community members worry that the late night scene in the Davis Downtown has gotten out of hand, and councilmembers have vowed to make drastic changes, the question remains, at least for me, whether we are even focused on the right problem.
There seems to be a belief among many that the chaotic nature of the hours, between 10 pm and closing time, have drawn in not only students looking to drink, dance and blow off steam on their weekends – which some last week said can extend from Wednesday night into Sunday, with the usual nights being Thursday, Friday and Saturday – but also those looking to commit a crime.
However, a completely unrelated event may cast doubt on whether these kinds of changes are really enough to prevent violence.
On Saturday night, in the little town of Madison, with 503 residents, at the Madison Town Hall, there was a brazen knife attack at a quinceañera birthday party (a celebration of a girl’s 15th birthday).
Eighteen-year-old Daniel Portugal, an uninvited guest, stabbed six people, all adults, including two members of the performing band. According to sheriff’s deputies, all the victims are expected to survive and the stab wounds range from minor to serious, with one victim undergoing surgery.
The motive for the attack was unclear, but the family knows the alleged suspect and his family.
Ricardo Alvarado said two of his band mates were stabbed, as was a woman who tried to stop the attacker.
“It looked like a war zone,” he told KCRA. “People were actually laying out here, in front, stabbed, laying in cars with all their wounds. About six, seven people got stabbed, so there are a lot of ambulances, helicopter here.”
In our view, the Davis City Council has taken the first steps to address the worst aspects of a problem that has clearly been brewing for some time. We clearly need to take additional steps to make sure that, while young people can have fun and blow off steam on a weekend, we have in place as many ways to ensure safety as possible.
The council has also done a good job of not going too far. The council last week turned back restrictions that would have prohibited live music at Blondies and would have ended the sale of alcohol at 10 pm.
As Councilmember Brett Lee put it, the council isn’t going to end live music in the downtown, so why put that as an interim restriction? The same is the case for the early ending of alcohol sales. While some in the community argue that we should have a midnight curfew on alcohol sales, the council wisely resisted that in putting it at 1 am.
While many argue nothing good can happen after midnight – and perhaps that is true – we also need to be realistic. As I’ve noted previously and it was argued at the forum last week, becoming too aggressive in the downtown core doesn’t end the problem – it moves it.
Restrictions in the downtown could force more of the drinking and partying into the neighborhoods. That makes it more disruptive to the neighbors and it also makes it harder to control and police. It has a possibility of pushing drinking from Davis, where students often walk or use taxi services to avoid driving while drinking, to Sacramento and other neighboring cities.
But the other point is that we have focused a lot on the downtown bar scene as though the death of Peter Gonzales was caused by the scene itself. That is the point I am making with the quinceañera incident – people looking for trouble will find a place to cause that trouble.
A lot of people think that if we end the bar scene, we end the violence in this community – and I’m not sure that is really the case.
I think we need to examine the data. Violence over the last decade has declined in the city of Davis. And, while police have claimed that the number of violent incidents is on the rise in the downtown, data provided in a recent Sacramento Bee article suggest that, even in the downtown, the number of incidents has declined in the last few years.
My view is that if we end the late night bar scene, something will replace it. If it is a bunch of large parties in Davis, it is just as likely that the violence will find its way there, as it did in the case of the quinceañera in Madison.
While we can take steps in the downtown to mitigate the risk through increased patrols and wanding, that will be far more problematic and difficult to achieve in large private parties in the neighborhoods.
I am far from convinced that we have really fixed the problem of violence. The police claim that already they have found knives and weapons through wanding, but once word gets around, people will leave their weapons in their cars and, if incidents arise, they could simply wait until their would-be victims exit the bar before pouncing.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
David
I take exception to the entire idea that not “curing” the problem with restrictions in the downtown will merely move the problem, taken to mean that we should not be “too restrictive” which is in and of itself highly subjective.
If we were to use this analogy in medicine, we should not attempt to restrict people’s abuse of Vicodin because they will only switch to Norco. ( Both forms of narcotic pain medication). This paints the picture as an either/ or problem rather than as a holistic issue of narcotic drug addiction.
It is clear to me that what we actually have are two distinct issues which have a significant overlap. One is the issue of binge drinking, a dangerous practice whether or not it results in any violence. The second is violence, whether or not it is alcohol fueled. As a doctor, I believe strongly in the benefits of prevention. I do not believe in throwing up our hands and saying that there is nothing that we can do. I do not believe in making up scenarios about what “might happen” and using those as justifications for maintaining the status quo. I believe that there are many small steps that could be taken that would reduce the potential for harm just as we saw gradually over many years with tobacco smoking as the model for harm reduction. I think that it is time to stop throwing up potential doubts and start taking actual steps to attempt to reduce the harm caused by these two separate but at times related issues.
The point I was trying to make is that much of the focus has been on the issue of downtown atmosphere when it’s not clear to me that the murder itself was tied to that atmosphere, rather than happening to occur there.
The police and the owner of Tres Hermanas both indicated violence has increased downtown at the nightclubs. In consequence, the City Council is trying to introduce reasonable regulations that may stop the violence. The city can institute the regulations, and then reassess in a year’s time, to see if there is any marked change in the violence. Why is that reasonable step not worth a try?
I’m not opposed to the city implementing the regulations it laid out last week.
David, the issue is that the downtown bar scene has little or nothing to do with Davis the town or community. It is precisely because the scene has developed as a “destination” bar scene for out-of-town gang bangers and gang banger wannabes who can feel like big fish in the little pond of a college town that the atmosphere or “culture” or whatever you want to call it has developed. As an original panelist on Davis’ Neighborhood Court program I made the prediction to a person who works as a bouncer at one of the bars on G Street that it was only a matter of time until something serious happened at KetMoRee just a scant three weeks before the fatal stabbing. It was no surprise to me. Now, if there is no problem with the scene downtown why would someone as clueless as a 60+ year old guy like me make a prediction like that?
There is a problem with how the Davis bar scene on Thursday and Friday nights has developed. I don’t have the answer and believe the City Council is probably taking the best course under the circumstances. There are many thoughtful and insightful people here in town with a more balanced and less opinionated view on humanity than me, so I will not weigh in on what should happen other than to say something needs to change and the scene downtown is the problem.
Great points. I will also add that the nightclub scene is a high-risk endeavor from my experience. (Frankly might have more information.) Friends who were bouncers in their youth say the average lifespan of a club is 2-4 years. They are new, then the “hot” place to go, then the hood element shows up or it is no longer the “cool” place to go, things go downhill, and the business closes.
I had minimal contact with the owners of a new bar in a similar town. The business plan showed a phenomenal markup on alcohol. They placed their new venture in a poor area, and it has one urinal and one toilet in a very popular bar, another error. It closed in 2 years.
I agree with Tia
I agree with Tia.
The problem is that the downtown in its current form attracts individuals from far and wide, like bears to honey,who think nothing of drinking to excess and then get into trouble. The percentage of UCD students downtown has gone down and they are being replaced by individuals who increase the likelihood of more serious violence. If the night life is restricted downtown this element may no longer travel to Davis looking for fun (violence). There are also a number of establishments downtown that are open late as an option for a late night meal that thrive on this business. So it is not just the “night clubs” that make money on the late night crowd that would be impacted by any new restrictions. I also wonder if it is the “night clubs” with dance floors that are causing the problem or the bars that are open late.
I think you just pulled this out of the air and it is likely not accurate and then blows up your entire line of thinking.
Ask yourself, why does a group of 20-something male gang members drive from Vacaville (where they already have a Blondie’s Pizza nightclub) to Davis to do the Davis club scene?
Here is what I think…
1. Concentration of other 20-something people that want to party with a large percentage female.
2. Concentration of people that want to party with money to buy drugs.
Note the first word in both.
Small downtown with a high concentration of people that want to party.
Those people are in this town no matter what we try to do with the downtown. Those people will seek a place to congregate and party, because that is what those 20-something people like to do.
And those outside elements will always be attracted to that congregation of people that want to party.
We are not going to solve the problem that caused this debate by new rules to force scarcity of services to this customer demographic… because this customer demographic will just congregate somewhere else. Most likely this will be dispersed into residential neighborhoods as house parties.
Davis voters have voted to keep the downtown the primary commercial center in the city.
Ya’ll made your own bed and now your are complaining that you have to sleep in it.
But it is really a good thing in terms of solving the problem that caused this debate, because it is all concentrated and we can focus on this one area. More cops and more rules for the merchants to help keep everyone safe.
The Memorial Union in UCD is down for reconstruction and expansion. Hopefully, that will provide another entertainment venue for college kids when it’s completed…the outside element will always be attracted to the allure of young college girls. Davis used to have a reputation of ten cops showing up if someone fell off their bike. If people notice that their actions don’t have consequences, word gets out and people get bolder. Look at how Picnic Day had growing incidents each year until Davis began more enforcement and curbing alcohol. We’re a small town…it doesn’t take much to build up a reputation for police presence and merchant rules.
Your logic is incomplete, Frankly. The student population hasn’t quadrupled in 2 decades.
If we had half the nightclubs, and had more enforcement, the outsiders might just go elsewhere.
Not according to the Davis PD. The word is that the are fewer problems now that there are more venues. Makes sense.
I don’t agree that fewer bars is going to help.
But I agree that more law enforcement should help.
But you’re leaving out the violent crime component. I guess there are less petty calls, but more knives and guns.
i think the vanguard’s point is you still have the attraction to davis – and part of that attraction is the allure of young, pretty female students. shut down the bar scene and you pop things up in other parts of town. that’s my take as well. the quiencenero is a perfect example that it doesn’t take a bar to draw that kind of crowd.
Could we stop referring to women as if they where some kind of bait when we have this conversation?
You’re right, the out of towers don’t come here for the women. They’re definitely coming here for the downtown ambiance.
Drunk college girls who have lost their inhibitions aren’t “bait” (a glittering attraction) to male assholes? What is your POINT Michelle? Deny reality to be politically correct?
If the problem is the way men behave, then why are we attempting to solve the problem by controlling the way women behave? Our strategy for keeping the bad men out of Davis is to keep our women sober and fully clothed?
Why are we labeling men bad?
The problem is the way some men behave. I have never advocated controlling either men or women, just shutting down the nightclub scene (not the night scene) that attracts and catalyzes bad behavior, on steroids. My point on the “bait” issue was this is what is, not that anyone can control the behavior of either sex.
What?
Is that a strategy? How would that work? Again, there is no way to control either sex.
When I was in the 8th grade at Holmes, during PE class one day Donnie pulled a hunting knife from his jeans (Donnie never dressed for PE) and chased Stuart around the field waving the knife and yelling at him. It was quite the sight. Donnie was taken away and class continued, but I guess using your logic what they should have done was close down the school since we all know that schools ‘catalyze’ bullying behavior.
Bars with loud music do not cause patrons to fertilizing your lawn, knock over trash cans, wear skimpy clothing or fornicate in your compost pile. Those are the actions of people who choose to act that way. You said it yourself:
If you want to stop these actions you need to address the behaviors, not blame the businesses.
Actually, now they would expel Donnie permanently from the school district.
I agree with Tia.
We have always had lots of college-ages women in this town. They are not the reason for the increase in the past few years in late evening violence and out-of-towers with weapons. And it is absurd to refuse to take action in response to the problem because we have college-aged women in this town.
The excess-drinking house-party scene in Davis (like everywhere else in the US) still exists for under aged kids and young adults who can’t afford the bar scene. The increase over the past few years in out-of-towners with weapons and violence downtown appears to be a separate phenomenon that correlates exclusively with the increase in late-night bars downtown.
“The increase over the past few years in out-of-towners with weapons and violence downtown appears to be a separate phenomenon that correlates exclusively with the increase in late-night bars downtown.”
I agree. And that is the entire point. How to control the late night bars/nightclub scene.
I don’t know, it seems to correlate just as well with global warming, but since correlation does not equal causation, neither one is likely the key to a solution.
I believe this is the smartest, on point comment that I have yet seen in this discussion. As Michelle correctly identifies, the major problem is the behavior of a small fraction of the people taking advantage of the late night scene in Davis. The only corrective measure that will work are efforts that directly address these behavior issues and the individuals who are responsible. Education and enforcement should top the list for starters.
Closing down the clubs will just move the problem somewhere else, and for all you neo-prohibitionists…it didn’t work the first time.
Education of all incoming freshmen IS taking place. So that leaves ENFORCEMENT as the only viable alternative short of closing the places down at an earlier hour, or closing them down completely.
I completely disagree with Michelle Millet’s point. Encouraging young girls to take off more clothes than they normally would to obtain free drinks is: 1) against ABC regulations/illegal; 2) is crossing the line into encouraging women to strip in exchange for money; 3) puts the women more in danger of over-inebriation and at higher risk for being subjected to rape; 4) is not the type of behavior we should be encouraging our young women to engage in.
Would you want YOUR DAUGHTER in any business establishment that encouraged girls to show up in skimpy lingerie in exchange for free drinks?
As Alan Miller so succinctly put it:
Alan Miller
October 21, 2015 at 11:00 am
Drunk college girls who have lost their inhibitions aren’t “bait” (a glittering attraction) to male assholes? What is your POINT Michelle? Deny reality to be politically correct?
LOL. This is really, really funny stuff.
Anon-The underlying implications of your comments is that young women can not be trusted to make their own decisions, and that they need to be protected from themselves. Propagation of this idea, in my mind, poses a far greater risk to women, then free drink specials.
As a side note, if I wanted to shield my daughter from business that encourages girls to show off in skimpy lingerie or clothing in exchange for money, then I would have to keep her out every establishment that sells US or People magazine. I’d also have to keep them out of every doctors and dentist office in town as well (especially when the Sports Illustrated swim suit addition comes out).
I don’t shield my daughter from the realities of the world. I discuss them with her.
Women drinking to much does is not the problem, the problem is men who rape women.
Eh . . . while a agree with Anon on the ugliness of the current downtown nightclub scene and the need to shut it (not the night scene) down, I don’t agree that there is any way to control women’s, or anyone’s, behavior. My point here is that you can’t cover up what IS by using PC language.
What I find troubling is the suggestion that women are mindless pawns in this bar game. There is also an underlying suggestion that there is something wrong with women who, of their on free will, wear lingerie to nightclubs.
All that being said, I would prefer that Davis not become a party town, not because I find women wearing skimpy clothing to nightclubs offensive or degrading, or because I feel some need to shelter my children from the sight of this, I just don’t like the scene, and I generally don’t like the people who like this scene, or the atmosphere that comes with people who like this scene, aka loud noise, litter, obnoxious drunk people, increased violence etc (which is why I stay clear of downtown on Picnic Day).
In this case I will plead NIMBY’ism.
First, Davis, like most college towns, is already a party town. In fact, it has been for some time… decades. The downtown didn’t make it so. The downtown merchants have just responded to what the community of paying customers want.
So in a large way what we are talking about is simply the demands of the old people against the desires of the young people. The old people don’t party and want it quiet and mellow. The young people want more action.
This isn’t rocket science. It has pretty much been this way since there were old people and young people.
Two different community demographics with a different opinion for what retail and entertainment services are made available in the downtown… the only shopping district since we have forbade all others. Who prevails here?
1. Frankly, I don’t recall Davis being a “party town” 2 or 3 decades ago. We had 2-3 active bars, and then tamer joints.
2. Michelle, women that wear skimpy lingerie to nightclubs are asking for trouble. Trouble can find anyone, but this is like leaving an apple pie and sugar out on your picnic table and being surprised that bees swarm. Not every bar goer is a metro-sexual do-gooder. It’s called street smarts.
This is the type of mentally we need to move away from as a society if we really want to reduce sexual assault against women.
This comment reminded of some useful rape prevention tips I found on the internet a while ago. I thought I’d share.
10 Rape Prevention Tips
1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.
2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.
3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.
4. If you are in an elevator and a women gets in, don’t rape her.
5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.
6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.
7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.
8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.
9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.
10. Dont forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.
TBD: Michelle, women that wear skimpy lingerie to nightclubs are asking for trouble.
M.M: This comment reminded of some useful rape prevention tips I found on the internet a while ago. I thought I’d share.
…which reminds me of this brief PSA related to rape prevention from a couple of years ago.
I think we have different definitions of “party town”. Let me clarify, I don’t want to see Downtown Davis convert to the destination party town for our region. When I attended UCD 20 years ago, no one was coming here from surrounding communities to “party”. The suggestion would have been laughable. I’m fine with a few “nightclubs” that operate in a responsible way. I don’t think we need to do anything extreme at this point, but I don’t want to see what happens to Davis during Picnic Day to become a regular occurrence, and it seems that was the general direction we’ve been heading the past 5 years.
I think council has made reasonable suggestions that will keep the scene in check, while still providing a place for people to have fun.
TBD. I might have the advantage on you for this perspective. In the 1980s I played in a rock dance band that played Mr. Bs, The Graduate and some other venues in town (Cassidys?). We also played a lot of fraternity and soroity houses… and general house parties.
If you don’t believe me here is an early one of our gigs at Freeborn Hall with 3000 4H kids.
http://youtu.be/r4T731ulYPA
Some of these “frat parties” were huge… 100s of kids.
Lots of kis from out of town would come. It is not like these kids from out of town have been unaware of Davis and its college party life.
I remember one we were on a flatbed trailer and the drunk kids kept jumping up on stage with the band and the larger fraternity members had to post themselves in front and there were fights resulting from the need to keep some order. It was a zoo.
I think you are falsely romanticising the past on this issue.
Now, I think the females tend to wear skimpier clothing, sexuality is more on display, and there are more violent people using weapons in the general population. But this is not a Davis phenomenon… it is universal.
I don’t think people drink any more or less… although the Asst Chief says alchohol consumption per capita has gone down in Davis.
The kids want to dance, socialize and drink and I don’t see anything wrong with it. I think it is better that we provide plentiful controlled, secured and regulated venues for them. Some more socially-conservative posters like Anon dig into negative morality branding like it is all new stuff these kids are doing. I’m telling you it isn’t much different that what has been going on for decades.
The term “nightclub” is not a negative one.
This may explain our different experiences. None of these were my scene. I have lots of fun memories playing pool at the G St Pub, and closing down the Catina on more then a few occasions…..
Michelle, let me politely write that you come off rather naive. I am not endorsing rape or the mistreatment of women in any way, shape, or form. But then there is reality, not a utopian existence. In my late 20s and 30s I attended a number of black tie charity events, and even there people could become quite unruly as the wee hours progressed … 12:30, 1:00, 1:30. Even there the street smart women arrived earlier, drank less, and left before the “bewitching hour” – say 12:00 – 12:30.
I understand the law, I understand respect, but I also understand men, booze, testosterone, drugs and poor judgement. In your utopian world a woman should be able to be drunk, stoned, half naked, and walk home alone at 3 AM from a nightclub – and do all this, safely. In my world,while their are gentlemen, there are also clods, drugs, low-IQ thugs, mentally unbalanced individuals, peer pressure, and more.
You may make the incorrect assumption that all men are rational, sane, and moral with your “list”.
Frankly, we may have crossed paths at Mr. Bs or The Grad. My first party was sponsored by 2 sororities and 2 frats at the Rec Pool, and I went to several frat parties were there were 70 – 100 kegs. A 40 keg party was considered smaller. But I don’t recall Davis being a regular party town destination – just Picnic Day, Whole Earth Festival, and a few special events. The vast majority of young people I ran into were Aggies, Aggie grads, Davis High grads, or an occasional foreign exchange student. It was relatively innocent and sheltered – in a good way. If someone drank to much, there were 2 or 3 people ready to help out, fights and drugs were rare (at least in my circles).
Then some DHS kids got drunk at a frat party, ran into a tree on Russell Blvd, one kid died, and the lax attitude towards fraternities changed. This case reminds me of that. FRat parties were $1.00 for all you could drink beer! After the tragic accident, frats had to have security, IDs were checked (no high school kids), and admission was $3.00. We had change.
I don’t ever recall anyone having a gun, knife, or metal pipe pulled on them. (Recent Cowell robbery.) I did see a huge farm man pummel a classmate in Mr. Bs, a rare fight. SAE was infamous, and I avoided it, and I never had a problem at black frat parties, at the yearly Stomp on Black Family Day, or anywhere on or off campus. I saw cocaine once, a friend reportedly liked mushrooms, and even marijuana seemed rare. … Now, the Pub on Friday afternoons – on campus. Awesome.
TBD: “Party town destination” is much different than “town with a significant percentage of the population that parties”.
I agree with you on the fact that Davis has become a destination.
I think the reason we see Davis becoming more of a destination is that the population of the region (if you include the East Bay population up to Dixon) has exploded. And much of that population between Bay Area proper and Davis is a very high percentage of lower income people that more likely carry weapons and exhibit thuggish behavior.
This is not the bar’s fault.
I think you think the nightclubs are attracting the outside element. But close the nightclubs and move the action to house parties and that outside element will still be here. And instead of being able to implement better policing and security measures were we can control it, the house parties will be largely uncontrolled and unregulated.
This might be the final identification of our big disagreement here. I think the outside element is coming to Davis for the parties, not the nightclubs. And I think the parties are just gonna’ happen because of the demographics of the city.
I’m not denying that predators exist and that we should all take precautions to keep ourselves safe. What I have a problem with is your statement that women are “asking for trouble” by dressing a certain way. It implies that they in some way deserve any sexual assault that is committed against them, or that the assault is somehow justified.
Frankly: If you don’t believe me here is an early one of our gigs at Freeborn Hall with 3000 4H kids.
Ron Cowden was in your band?? I didn’t know he was that old. He has aged very well.
yup. he really has not aged.
Michelle, your thin slicing how many hairs fit on the head of a needle really doesn’t help young women. There are smart decisions, and stupid ones. Having too much to drink, being alone, being out later, dressing scantily, going to a club known for violence, etc., are all risk factors.
I never said women were “asking” for anything. I am communicating very clearly that the more provocative they dress, the more attention and possibly trouble they will attract. It is quite simple. A provocatively dressed women is holding out a red cape for many men… they get approached as they exit their car when dressed like that! Getting out of their car, in line for the club, in line for the bathroom, etc.
How many risk factors they want to combine is their choice. I’ve been to a UCD alumni event where a woman was dressed very provocatively. It was 6 PM, most everyone was over 40, she was with her husband, it was an invite only event, not a nightclub, and she had all her faculties. I’m 1,000% sure she got home OK.
Foot patrols, DUI check points, stop & frisk?
I’m good with all three of those.
You should watch the video we just posted, Darren Pytel explained that DUI Checkpoints are of limited utility because legally they can only put them up in a few spots.
I think a lot of things are open to interpretation. Take stop and frisk, which also has limitations. New York implemented it, Chicago didn’t, and it was Gotham City that saw the dramatic decrease in crime.
Hard to do any analysis based on two data points. Crime dropped dramatically nationwide over that period in places that had draconian laws and places that didn’t.
foot patrols sound most promising. stop and frisk is frought with political risks and violations of the constitution. dui check points i think you haven’t researched enough despite my repeated requests that you do so.
There was a stabbing in Madison, therefore cracking down on the downtown scene wouldn’t help deter violence?
You didn’t win often on the debate team, did you?
My thought exactly!
There have been stabbings at lunch time in restaurants in many cities, therefore cracking down on their downtown lunch time eating scene wouldn’t help deter violence?
By the way, there have been fires in houses on foggy damp nights with a light rain during an especially wet season . . . so no need to clear that dry brush away from your wooden coastal hills house in the middle of a drought! Fires can happen anywhere, anytime.
Michelle
“The underlying implications of your comments is that young women can not be trusted to make their own decisions, and that they need to be protected from themselves. Propagation of this idea, in my mind, poses a far greater risk to women, then free drink specials.”
This comment is true only up until such time as the woman is inebriated. Then her ability to make sound judgements for herself decreases just as it does for a man under the same influence of alcohol. This is fact, not opinion. One of the effects of alcohol on the central nervous system and our higher cognitive abilities is to lessen our ability to make reasoned judgements. Thus it is just plain true that the drunker the individual becomes, the less they can be trusted to make their own decisions regardless of their gender.
“Women drinking to much does is not the problem, the problem is men who rape women.”
This is true only if rape is the only adverse consequence that you are concerned about. How about the man who is more inebriated than the woman and has lost his ability to discriminate between what seems like a yes to him coming from a woman who is more able to make judgements than he is, but regrettably is still too inebriated to make sound judgements ? I think it is far too facile to just make this a good women, bad men scenario when both are clearly using impaired judgement.
I see.
When men drink too much and wear pants down around their knees and show their underwear… they are responsible for their stupid behavior.
When women drink too much and wear clothing that some consider too revealing… the bar is responsible.
Do I have that right?
No, you do not have that right.
I not going to disagree with this but I’m not sure what your point is. Should we not let women drink because they make bad decisions when they do?
No, we should just hold men to a higher standard of responsibility around any woman that has had a drink while demanding equality.
I’ll drink a toast to the day where demanding equality is no longer required. (Seriously it’s exhausting).
I will drink a toast with you (responsibly!)
Pay Dutch of course.
“Should we not let women drink because they make bad decisions when they do?”
We should not foster an atmosphere that encourages them to drink to excess for the profit of others. Whether that is asking merchants not to start selling alcohol before 11 am on Picnic Day, or whether it is asking nightclub owners not to provide free drinks for partially clad women ( who I agree have the right to dress any way they see fit, but lets not pretend that all choices are equally wise).
1. There apparently is a huge amount of evidence which lawyers are sifting through, which includes hours of tape from inside KetMo. All five have criminal records.
http://www.dailyrepublic.com/news/vacaville/judge-delays-hearing-for-vacaville-suspects-in-davis-homicide/
2. SOLUTION to one small persistent problem: have the city switch trash pickup day in downtown neighborhoods to the beginning of the week, so that when drunk young people walk to their car or home, they are not tempted to knock over / throw trash cans around.
Simple solution, zero cost.
Knocking over trash cans and stealing Halloween decorations…
https://youtu.be/b1NehdHtf7Y
“have the city switch trash pickup day in downtown neighborhoods to the beginning of the week”
Now there is a very simple solution to one small piece of the problem that had not occurred to me. Thanks so much for the voicing the thought.
“All five have criminal records”
you keep repeating that. do you think you can do a background check for criminal records as people enter the bar?
Michelle Millet
October 21, 2015 at 1:44 pm
What I find troubling is the suggestion that women are mindless pawns in this bar game. There is also an underlying suggestion that there is something wrong with women who, of their on free will, wear lingerie to nightclubs.
What I find troubling is that you don’t seem to see anything wrong with a nightclub encouraging young women to dress in lingerie in exchange for free drinks. It is against ABC regulations/illegal for starters. Secondly, it encourages women to come in a state of more undress than they normally would. This leaves them more vulnerable to over-inebriation; poor judgment; and a more likely victim of rape. As someone pointed out earlier, if one is street smart, one doesn’t walk downtown in a city at 3 am just because they legally “should” be able to do so without being assaulted. The street smart individual realizes the stupidity of such actions and avoids doing something that dumb. A bar should not be encouraging young women to become over-inebriated as well as show up scantily clad. If you wouldn’t want your daughter doing it, you should NOT want anyone else’s daughter encouraged to do it.
They should only be allowed to encourage the men to dress in lingerie for free drinks. But for some reason, that marketing strategy doesn’t seem prevalent.
Anon – you keep repeating this “lingerie for free drinks” complaint and yet you don’t have any proof that this was/is occurring. What I understand is that the front door staff can use discretion to decide which people to let in for free (no cover charge). This is not an ABC regulation violation.
I certainly don’t have any problem with you or anyone else complaining about certain business practices, but your continued claims are very close to slander unless you can provide evidence.
I’m going to encourage my daughter to decide for herself what SHE wants to do when she is an adult, and not what others want her to do (or not do).
good approach but easier said than done – speaking from experience. my daughter has mostly made the right decisions even under very trying circumstances.
To Frankly: Giving free drinks is an ABC violation. The lingerie parties information shows up on DavisWiki and Yelp. You might want to look up the definition of “slander”!
It’s not the women dressed in lingerie getting the free drinks that I concern over, it’s bars giving out free or super cheap drinks, to anyone, this seems to create problems, regardless of how the patrons are dressed, or not dressed.
If our concern is about scantily clad women, then maybe should ban bathing suits at our public pools…..
i don’t understand the need for the battle of the sexes here or why don has allowed the conversation to diverge this much.
Go back and ready what Tia Will and Anon have written… and a few others. They have laid the foundation for this line by pursuing moral arguments and frankly, exploiting concerns about how women are treated to make their case.
I see no evidence that women are being treated less well than they expect/want to be treated. But that is their assertion.
Serving free drinks is illegal per ABC regulations. Encouraging females to dress scantily in exchange for free drinks is illegal per ABC regulations. Encouraging females to over-drink by offering free drinks is detrimental to their safety, and hence the reason ABC made such things illegal. Duh!
Frankly
“Go back and ready what Tia Will and Anon have written… and a few others. They have laid the foundation for this line by pursuing moral arguments”
No, I have never voiced any moral argument about this. STD’s are real material harm as are unintended pregnancies. The harms to the neighbors are also real and material, not moral or philosophic. Trash and detritus are real, material harm as is sleep deprivation. If you disagree, please quote the post in which you believe that I have made a moral or any non material argument for that matter.
Michelle
“I’m going to encourage my daughter to decide for herself what SHE wants to do when she is an adult, and not what others want her to do (or not do).”
I am glad that you are encouraging your daughter to think for herself, just as I did mine. However, I think that you may be over estimating how many parents raise their daughters this way vs how many raise their daughters only to obey the rules their parents enforce when they are at home assuming erroneously that the girls will have internalized these rules as their own.
One case in point. My daughters’ first year at Cal. Her roommate was obviously raised by very strict Muslim parents. I know because I met and spoke with them. They had raised their daughter in a very strict and very sheltered setting. When I went to pick up my daughter for holiday break it was obvious how successful this strategy had been. The roommate had on a cast from when, in a complete state of alcohol induced incapacitation, she had fallen down the stairs and broken her leg. My daughter was quite unsympathetic having dealt with this young woman repetitively coming back to their room, in the wee hours of the morning and throwing up or blacking out. At the first opportunity for a room change, she took it.
Just because we believe that we raise our sons and daughters to think for themselves and make sound choices, does not mean that these are the choices that they will make. So, do I believe that we should close businesses because of the poor choices of their patrons ? No.
But likewise, I do not feel that we have to encourage and enable these businesses to profit from the self harm inflicted past the legal point ( for serving more alcohol) of inebriation without regard to the gender of the person who should not be served.
Enjoying the comments posted; takes me back to younger days (and nights)
How about the Vanguard posters all meet at a bar and get drunk together (4 drink minimum) and hash these matters out? I expect we’d sound pretty much like the current crop of student patrons; lots of loud exaggerated talking, disagreements, provocations; maybe a broken nose or split lip by the end of the evening; but I like to think that in the Irish tradition the next day awaken thick as thieves.
Michelle: ““I’m going to encourage my daughter to decide for herself what SHE wants to do when she is an adult, and not what others want her to do (or not do).”
And if your daughter decided to do something really stupid/illegal/unsafe, you wouldn’t discourage her, because she is “deciding for herself what she wants to do”?