At Tuesday night’s Davis City Council meeting, roughly 50 residents of the facility came to city council to express their support of the council to intervene on their behalf.
Supervisor Mariko Yamada who has been at the forefront of advocacy for seniors and senior living issues spoke before the council:
“I not only want to express support for the council’s efforts to look into this matter, county will certainly be a partner with you in that. In fact they did meet with the resident’s association immediately after the first news report of first the eight percent increase but then learning it has been a double digit increase over the past two years. This is part of a larger corporate issue I think in terms of how seniors are housed in our communities. Atria is a national corporation, there are issues arising, problems with Atria nationwide. But it also speaks to other housing needs for seniors, at the county level we are bringing home a study on rent stabilization for manufactured home parks, as well as taking a look at other facilities such as CCRC’s (Community Care Retirement Centers)… But I also think we need to take a look at senior housing needs throughout the area.”
Davis City Councilmember Lamar Heystek urged the council to take immediate action–if it was within the realm of the law and expressed a willingness to meet during the holidays in order to accomplish this.
“I’m in town [next week] If staff gave us a place, I’d be happy to act before the end of the year because it is of an urgent nature, I mean your rent increases kick in at the beginning of January. And I say that sincerely because I think we can talk about doing things on a long range calendar… but I understand you would like some immediate attention and I hope that I can be part of a solution on an immediate basis.”
Mayor Sue Greenwald also indicated a willingness to act immediately:
“Why don’t we authorize Harriet [Steiner] to look into our legal options and if there are option, why don’t we ask Bill [Emlen] to schedule an emergency meeting.”
Councilmember Don Saylor indicated that neither he nor two of his colleagues would be in town during this time:
“I think there will be two of you in town during that time…”
He also expressed reticence to act immediately even if he were in town.
“Like everybody, I think we’re all touched, nobody likes this situation and we’re very touched by the presence of the people in the room tonight. But I think we have to act within the bounds of what we can do and be clear about that. While it’s possible that we could be the first city in the state, or one of the first, to implement a rent control mechanism, it’s not likely. And it’s not going to happen in the next couple of weeks. I think that we ought to be looking at the things that we can do and working with the management of Atria to try to get them to participate in a voluntary mediation has potential, it’s possible. I don’t know if it’s going to be successful. But it’s certainly worth trying… So I think we should do the things we can, within the authority we have, and test the bounds by exploration. But I don’t think we can do something within the next few weeks, no matter what we do.”
Michelle Reardon, who sits on the Social Services Commission and also practices in geriatric counseling, suggested there may be little a local entity can do at this point. She expressed regrets that Atria was licensed by the Department of Social Services to be a Residential Care Facility for the Elderly. Once licensed she believed that the state and not the city had jurisdiction over “rent.”
This brings forward a larger issue of about Senior Care Facilities and licensing. A quick search for Atria finds a troubled organization with a wide array of complaints against it.
Channel 13 in Sacramento reports on a residential protest at an Atria facility in Sacramento.
“Nobody at this senior home wants to go, they just don’t know if they can afford to stay. They were told that their rents were being raised, the residents got together and figured out that the increases range from six up to eleven percent.
…
Arthur’s rent is increasing more than $4,000 next year.
…
The reason they’ve been given was that the building is riddled with dry rot, but residents don’t believe that’s financial burden to bear.
Some increase is expected, three or four percent is average at other homes. But, the overall feeling here is that management is unfairly taking money these people spent their lives saving.”
In the meantime, Atria faces federal investigations for the violations of workers’ rights:
“At facilities around the country, Atria is now facing a large number of federal investigations over charges that the company violated federal labor law, including threatening, intimidating, spying on, and otherwise violating the rights of employees who have been active in forming a union for improvements at their facilities”
And when workers at these care facilities has attempted to unionize, Atria has resorted to standard intimidation, harassment, and disciplining of workers.
“I was fired because I want a voice on the job. Atria needs to listen to workers so that residents get the care, staffing, and services they deserve. We’re forming a union for a voice in care for residents and working conditions for workers,” said Radika Munna, a former employee at Atria Senior Living, during a candlelight vigil where community leaders gathered to support workers who have been harassed for their efforts to improve conditions for workers and residents by forming a union at Atria Shaker in Lynbrook, New York.
These complaints bring up the question of who licenses these facilities and how local communities and counties can insure that when they provide for Senior Housing, that these provisions are met in a responsible manner. Local governments should not lose control of their authority once they grant building permits and zoning changes. How does a community like Davis, insure that once they provide these facilities, that their residents receive the type of care, attention, and affordability that they deserve?
Obviously this is a much broader question than can be addressed now. But it is imperative that the City of Davis along with Yolo County and other advocacy groups look at what is happening nationwide with companies like Atria and take steps to insure that this never happens again.
—Doug Paul Davis reporting
Sounds like Saylor is taking a sensible, realistic approach given that the City has no authority here. Residential Care Facilities are regulated by the State. Any City action would appear to be preempted and would end up costing the City time and $$ in legal proceedings. Lamar is over-reaching and over-promising pretending he can take emergency action when he cannot.
Sounds like Saylor is taking a sensible, realistic approach given that the City has no authority here. Residential Care Facilities are regulated by the State. Any City action would appear to be preempted and would end up costing the City time and $$ in legal proceedings. Lamar is over-reaching and over-promising pretending he can take emergency action when he cannot.
Sounds like Saylor is taking a sensible, realistic approach given that the City has no authority here. Residential Care Facilities are regulated by the State. Any City action would appear to be preempted and would end up costing the City time and $$ in legal proceedings. Lamar is over-reaching and over-promising pretending he can take emergency action when he cannot.
Sounds like Saylor is taking a sensible, realistic approach given that the City has no authority here. Residential Care Facilities are regulated by the State. Any City action would appear to be preempted and would end up costing the City time and $$ in legal proceedings. Lamar is over-reaching and over-promising pretending he can take emergency action when he cannot.
That’s interesting because I have the opposite reaction. Both Lamar and Sue requested that Harriet find out if there is anything legal that could be done by the city and Don rejected that possibility out of hand. He may turn out to be correct on that point, but rejecting it out of hand is probably not a good approach.
The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so. Again, it is possible that Don is correct–indeed likely–but why close doors to possibilities.
That’s interesting because I have the opposite reaction. Both Lamar and Sue requested that Harriet find out if there is anything legal that could be done by the city and Don rejected that possibility out of hand. He may turn out to be correct on that point, but rejecting it out of hand is probably not a good approach.
The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so. Again, it is possible that Don is correct–indeed likely–but why close doors to possibilities.
That’s interesting because I have the opposite reaction. Both Lamar and Sue requested that Harriet find out if there is anything legal that could be done by the city and Don rejected that possibility out of hand. He may turn out to be correct on that point, but rejecting it out of hand is probably not a good approach.
The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so. Again, it is possible that Don is correct–indeed likely–but why close doors to possibilities.
That’s interesting because I have the opposite reaction. Both Lamar and Sue requested that Harriet find out if there is anything legal that could be done by the city and Don rejected that possibility out of hand. He may turn out to be correct on that point, but rejecting it out of hand is probably not a good approach.
The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so. Again, it is possible that Don is correct–indeed likely–but why close doors to possibilities.
We do not need bureaucratic bean-counters representing us on our Council. We need people with values and a vision that can make us proud of our city. Our well-paid city staff and consultants earn their salaries by researching and then explaining to the Council how/if/why the Council’s vision can or cannot be implemented.
We do not need bureaucratic bean-counters representing us on our Council. We need people with values and a vision that can make us proud of our city. Our well-paid city staff and consultants earn their salaries by researching and then explaining to the Council how/if/why the Council’s vision can or cannot be implemented.
We do not need bureaucratic bean-counters representing us on our Council. We need people with values and a vision that can make us proud of our city. Our well-paid city staff and consultants earn their salaries by researching and then explaining to the Council how/if/why the Council’s vision can or cannot be implemented.
We do not need bureaucratic bean-counters representing us on our Council. We need people with values and a vision that can make us proud of our city. Our well-paid city staff and consultants earn their salaries by researching and then explaining to the Council how/if/why the Council’s vision can or cannot be implemented.
“…but why close doors to possibilities.”
…and most importantly, the city actively pursuing these possiblities is the most significant leverage that can move Atria in the upcoming “voluntary” mediation efforts; an observation that I cannot believe Don Saylor is unaware of.
“…but why close doors to possibilities.”
…and most importantly, the city actively pursuing these possiblities is the most significant leverage that can move Atria in the upcoming “voluntary” mediation efforts; an observation that I cannot believe Don Saylor is unaware of.
“…but why close doors to possibilities.”
…and most importantly, the city actively pursuing these possiblities is the most significant leverage that can move Atria in the upcoming “voluntary” mediation efforts; an observation that I cannot believe Don Saylor is unaware of.
“…but why close doors to possibilities.”
…and most importantly, the city actively pursuing these possiblities is the most significant leverage that can move Atria in the upcoming “voluntary” mediation efforts; an observation that I cannot believe Don Saylor is unaware of.
That’s a very good point in terms of leverage.
I think that discussion is important for a number of reasons, but my biggest concern is looking at the company, Atria, looking at the type of company it is, I would not want my parents or loved ones to be involved with such a company. And so we need to as a community have a bigger discussion on this point.
One question we need to ask is whether we can entrust senior care to for-profit companies. I hope Supervisor Yamada, Supervisor Thomson, the Board of Supervisors and the City Council look into this crisis once we have gotten past this point and really look at how we want to do senior housing and senior care in this community. Because I’ll say this right now, Atria is a huge problem that we are going to have to deal with now for years to come.
That’s a very good point in terms of leverage.
I think that discussion is important for a number of reasons, but my biggest concern is looking at the company, Atria, looking at the type of company it is, I would not want my parents or loved ones to be involved with such a company. And so we need to as a community have a bigger discussion on this point.
One question we need to ask is whether we can entrust senior care to for-profit companies. I hope Supervisor Yamada, Supervisor Thomson, the Board of Supervisors and the City Council look into this crisis once we have gotten past this point and really look at how we want to do senior housing and senior care in this community. Because I’ll say this right now, Atria is a huge problem that we are going to have to deal with now for years to come.
That’s a very good point in terms of leverage.
I think that discussion is important for a number of reasons, but my biggest concern is looking at the company, Atria, looking at the type of company it is, I would not want my parents or loved ones to be involved with such a company. And so we need to as a community have a bigger discussion on this point.
One question we need to ask is whether we can entrust senior care to for-profit companies. I hope Supervisor Yamada, Supervisor Thomson, the Board of Supervisors and the City Council look into this crisis once we have gotten past this point and really look at how we want to do senior housing and senior care in this community. Because I’ll say this right now, Atria is a huge problem that we are going to have to deal with now for years to come.
That’s a very good point in terms of leverage.
I think that discussion is important for a number of reasons, but my biggest concern is looking at the company, Atria, looking at the type of company it is, I would not want my parents or loved ones to be involved with such a company. And so we need to as a community have a bigger discussion on this point.
One question we need to ask is whether we can entrust senior care to for-profit companies. I hope Supervisor Yamada, Supervisor Thomson, the Board of Supervisors and the City Council look into this crisis once we have gotten past this point and really look at how we want to do senior housing and senior care in this community. Because I’ll say this right now, Atria is a huge problem that we are going to have to deal with now for years to come.
this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
am i the only person here who sees a parallel between atria and sodexho?
this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
am i the only person here who sees a parallel between atria and sodexho?
this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
am i the only person here who sees a parallel between atria and sodexho?
this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
am i the only person here who sees a parallel between atria and sodexho?
I agree completely. Sodexho was the first thing I thought of when I started seeing some of these complaints. Sodexho has a very similar anti-union, exploitative business record.
I agree completely. Sodexho was the first thing I thought of when I started seeing some of these complaints. Sodexho has a very similar anti-union, exploitative business record.
I agree completely. Sodexho was the first thing I thought of when I started seeing some of these complaints. Sodexho has a very similar anti-union, exploitative business record.
I agree completely. Sodexho was the first thing I thought of when I started seeing some of these complaints. Sodexho has a very similar anti-union, exploitative business record.
“this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.”
I agree. We should house the elderly in government-owned convalescent homes like they do in France. As long as grandma avoids an infectious disease and it doesn’t get over 90 degrees, she should do just fine.
Unfortunately, when it gets over 90 degrees, thousands of old French people routinely die in those non-profit convalescent hospitals, because they don’t have air conditioning. And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.
“this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.”
I agree. We should house the elderly in government-owned convalescent homes like they do in France. As long as grandma avoids an infectious disease and it doesn’t get over 90 degrees, she should do just fine.
Unfortunately, when it gets over 90 degrees, thousands of old French people routinely die in those non-profit convalescent hospitals, because they don’t have air conditioning. And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.
“this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.”
I agree. We should house the elderly in government-owned convalescent homes like they do in France. As long as grandma avoids an infectious disease and it doesn’t get over 90 degrees, she should do just fine.
Unfortunately, when it gets over 90 degrees, thousands of old French people routinely die in those non-profit convalescent hospitals, because they don’t have air conditioning. And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.
“this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.”
I agree. We should house the elderly in government-owned convalescent homes like they do in France. As long as grandma avoids an infectious disease and it doesn’t get over 90 degrees, she should do just fine.
Unfortunately, when it gets over 90 degrees, thousands of old French people routinely die in those non-profit convalescent hospitals, because they don’t have air conditioning. And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.
Several things in response to that:
What is wrong with a non-profit group running such facilities?
Second, no one ever said profit was evil, but one means by which the council can prevent companies that have bad practices from running such facilities is to require them to be run by non-profits.
Several things in response to that:
What is wrong with a non-profit group running such facilities?
Second, no one ever said profit was evil, but one means by which the council can prevent companies that have bad practices from running such facilities is to require them to be run by non-profits.
Several things in response to that:
What is wrong with a non-profit group running such facilities?
Second, no one ever said profit was evil, but one means by which the council can prevent companies that have bad practices from running such facilities is to require them to be run by non-profits.
Several things in response to that:
What is wrong with a non-profit group running such facilities?
Second, no one ever said profit was evil, but one means by which the council can prevent companies that have bad practices from running such facilities is to require them to be run by non-profits.
I just don’t think people should be trying to make a profit off senior care facilities. I don’t have a problem with profit, I like making a profit myself. What I don’t like is exploitation of people in vulnerable positions.
I just don’t think people should be trying to make a profit off senior care facilities. I don’t have a problem with profit, I like making a profit myself. What I don’t like is exploitation of people in vulnerable positions.
I just don’t think people should be trying to make a profit off senior care facilities. I don’t have a problem with profit, I like making a profit myself. What I don’t like is exploitation of people in vulnerable positions.
I just don’t think people should be trying to make a profit off senior care facilities. I don’t have a problem with profit, I like making a profit myself. What I don’t like is exploitation of people in vulnerable positions.
re “And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.”
duh???????…
re “And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.”
duh???????…
re “And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.”
duh???????…
re “And hopefully, grandma won’t be in one of the French convalescent hospitals with a cholera outbreak. Sadly, those are all too common. But at least no one is making a profit. Profit is evil.”
duh???????…
The implication sarcastically insinuated above is that government,non-profit systems are inherently inferior to the care- for- profit model. This is factually refuted by data on longevity, general health, infant mortality and consumer satisfaction in the government health care delivery systems of Canada and Europe.
The implication sarcastically insinuated above is that government,non-profit systems are inherently inferior to the care- for- profit model. This is factually refuted by data on longevity, general health, infant mortality and consumer satisfaction in the government health care delivery systems of Canada and Europe.
The implication sarcastically insinuated above is that government,non-profit systems are inherently inferior to the care- for- profit model. This is factually refuted by data on longevity, general health, infant mortality and consumer satisfaction in the government health care delivery systems of Canada and Europe.
The implication sarcastically insinuated above is that government,non-profit systems are inherently inferior to the care- for- profit model. This is factually refuted by data on longevity, general health, infant mortality and consumer satisfaction in the government health care delivery systems of Canada and Europe.
Thanks Davisite,
Finally some facts to consider amid all the puffery.
Thanks Davisite,
Finally some facts to consider amid all the puffery.
Thanks Davisite,
Finally some facts to consider amid all the puffery.
Thanks Davisite,
Finally some facts to consider amid all the puffery.
I don’t think Davis would be the first city in the state to enact rent control.
http://www.caltenantlaw.com/RCcities.htm
But I’m guessing it would be more effective and more expeditious for local political figures to put pressure on the corporation. Maybe Lois Wolk and others could be brought into the discussion.
I don’t think Davis would be the first city in the state to enact rent control.
http://www.caltenantlaw.com/RCcities.htm
But I’m guessing it would be more effective and more expeditious for local political figures to put pressure on the corporation. Maybe Lois Wolk and others could be brought into the discussion.
I don’t think Davis would be the first city in the state to enact rent control.
http://www.caltenantlaw.com/RCcities.htm
But I’m guessing it would be more effective and more expeditious for local political figures to put pressure on the corporation. Maybe Lois Wolk and others could be brought into the discussion.
I don’t think Davis would be the first city in the state to enact rent control.
http://www.caltenantlaw.com/RCcities.htm
But I’m guessing it would be more effective and more expeditious for local political figures to put pressure on the corporation. Maybe Lois Wolk and others could be brought into the discussion.
Please note I am Vice-Chair of the Davis Senior Citizens Commission, speaking as a private citizen.
Lois Wolk’s office has already been notified.
I contacted an organization called CA Advocates for Nursing Home Reform. They gave a number of strategies that can be investigated. I have passed these suggestions along to Lamar and Sue, who seem to be supportive of the Atria Covell Gardens folks in a quest to reduce their rent increase.
I also contacted another organization called CALCRA (CAL Continuing Care Residents Association). One suggestion was for about ten residents to declare their intention to move from Atria Covell Gardens. It got me to thinking.
It seems to me what is really going on here is an attempt by Atria to make their facility more upscale. What I was told is they are making renovations to make the entire place look classier. Those who cannot afford the rent increase can possibly be moved to less expensive units, so no one will have to move. That frees up pricier units for those who can better afford them. I am not making a value judgment here, just an observation.
The other issue that also is of concern is the increase in acuity of care. When seniors are placed in assisted living facilities, there are two components to costs. The rent portion, and the assisted living services portion. As a senior ages, s/he usually needs ever increasing amounts of assistance, which becomes costlier as health declines.
It is not uncommon for families to move aging relatives from place to place, as the senior has ever increasing service needs to maintain health that require the dollar to stretch more. This was discussed at length at our last Yolo County Commission on Aging & Adult Services meeting, chaired by Mariko Yamada.
The Davis Senior Citizens Commission was asked to assist in this endeavor of holding off the rent increase. I would like to see a much larger discussion of senior housing in general, from independent living, assisted living, to skilled nursing care facilities.
Eleanor Roosevelt Circle was an attempt to try something different, a mixed income senior facility, that turned out to be not what seniors wanted. Instead Eleanor Roosevelt still has some vacancies (correct me if I am wrong), and is largely a low income facility, which was not what was originally intended. However, it has been immensely successful in providing a Social Services Director on-site five days a week – for those with mental and physical disabilities, a wonderful adjunct.
Another problem in the housing arena that is occurring is the politicization of the issue. Developers are touting projects as necessary because they will provide senior housing. If the developer can’t get a toe-hold one way, they use the issue of senior housing as a fall-back position to get what they want. It back-fired with respect to Covell Village, but is being used as a tactic again and again.
Senior housing is a critical issue, but it has to be talked about cohesively, in a structured manner, in terms of what is good for Davis citizens. Too often developers build the wrong kind of senior housing – which brings in outsiders, but does not serve Davisites. If not carefully done, Davis may become a wealthy retirement community, with few young families with children living here. We are already seeing the results of poor planning – the decline in attendance which caused the school district to close a school.
Careful, thoughtful planning is needed, to provide APPROPRIATE SENIOR HOUSING FOR DAVIS CITIZENS WHO LIVE HERE NOW. It is the only way to ensure that rent increases remain manageable for those seniors on fixed incomes who cannot take a hit of an 8% rent increase every year indefinitely.
I do agree with Don Saylor on one point, and that is if Davis plays its cards right, we can be at the forefront of developing innovative senior housing options that do a better job at protecting the elderly, particulary the fragile elderly.
Please note I am Vice-Chair of the Davis Senior Citizens Commission, speaking as a private citizen.
Lois Wolk’s office has already been notified.
I contacted an organization called CA Advocates for Nursing Home Reform. They gave a number of strategies that can be investigated. I have passed these suggestions along to Lamar and Sue, who seem to be supportive of the Atria Covell Gardens folks in a quest to reduce their rent increase.
I also contacted another organization called CALCRA (CAL Continuing Care Residents Association). One suggestion was for about ten residents to declare their intention to move from Atria Covell Gardens. It got me to thinking.
It seems to me what is really going on here is an attempt by Atria to make their facility more upscale. What I was told is they are making renovations to make the entire place look classier. Those who cannot afford the rent increase can possibly be moved to less expensive units, so no one will have to move. That frees up pricier units for those who can better afford them. I am not making a value judgment here, just an observation.
The other issue that also is of concern is the increase in acuity of care. When seniors are placed in assisted living facilities, there are two components to costs. The rent portion, and the assisted living services portion. As a senior ages, s/he usually needs ever increasing amounts of assistance, which becomes costlier as health declines.
It is not uncommon for families to move aging relatives from place to place, as the senior has ever increasing service needs to maintain health that require the dollar to stretch more. This was discussed at length at our last Yolo County Commission on Aging & Adult Services meeting, chaired by Mariko Yamada.
The Davis Senior Citizens Commission was asked to assist in this endeavor of holding off the rent increase. I would like to see a much larger discussion of senior housing in general, from independent living, assisted living, to skilled nursing care facilities.
Eleanor Roosevelt Circle was an attempt to try something different, a mixed income senior facility, that turned out to be not what seniors wanted. Instead Eleanor Roosevelt still has some vacancies (correct me if I am wrong), and is largely a low income facility, which was not what was originally intended. However, it has been immensely successful in providing a Social Services Director on-site five days a week – for those with mental and physical disabilities, a wonderful adjunct.
Another problem in the housing arena that is occurring is the politicization of the issue. Developers are touting projects as necessary because they will provide senior housing. If the developer can’t get a toe-hold one way, they use the issue of senior housing as a fall-back position to get what they want. It back-fired with respect to Covell Village, but is being used as a tactic again and again.
Senior housing is a critical issue, but it has to be talked about cohesively, in a structured manner, in terms of what is good for Davis citizens. Too often developers build the wrong kind of senior housing – which brings in outsiders, but does not serve Davisites. If not carefully done, Davis may become a wealthy retirement community, with few young families with children living here. We are already seeing the results of poor planning – the decline in attendance which caused the school district to close a school.
Careful, thoughtful planning is needed, to provide APPROPRIATE SENIOR HOUSING FOR DAVIS CITIZENS WHO LIVE HERE NOW. It is the only way to ensure that rent increases remain manageable for those seniors on fixed incomes who cannot take a hit of an 8% rent increase every year indefinitely.
I do agree with Don Saylor on one point, and that is if Davis plays its cards right, we can be at the forefront of developing innovative senior housing options that do a better job at protecting the elderly, particulary the fragile elderly.
Please note I am Vice-Chair of the Davis Senior Citizens Commission, speaking as a private citizen.
Lois Wolk’s office has already been notified.
I contacted an organization called CA Advocates for Nursing Home Reform. They gave a number of strategies that can be investigated. I have passed these suggestions along to Lamar and Sue, who seem to be supportive of the Atria Covell Gardens folks in a quest to reduce their rent increase.
I also contacted another organization called CALCRA (CAL Continuing Care Residents Association). One suggestion was for about ten residents to declare their intention to move from Atria Covell Gardens. It got me to thinking.
It seems to me what is really going on here is an attempt by Atria to make their facility more upscale. What I was told is they are making renovations to make the entire place look classier. Those who cannot afford the rent increase can possibly be moved to less expensive units, so no one will have to move. That frees up pricier units for those who can better afford them. I am not making a value judgment here, just an observation.
The other issue that also is of concern is the increase in acuity of care. When seniors are placed in assisted living facilities, there are two components to costs. The rent portion, and the assisted living services portion. As a senior ages, s/he usually needs ever increasing amounts of assistance, which becomes costlier as health declines.
It is not uncommon for families to move aging relatives from place to place, as the senior has ever increasing service needs to maintain health that require the dollar to stretch more. This was discussed at length at our last Yolo County Commission on Aging & Adult Services meeting, chaired by Mariko Yamada.
The Davis Senior Citizens Commission was asked to assist in this endeavor of holding off the rent increase. I would like to see a much larger discussion of senior housing in general, from independent living, assisted living, to skilled nursing care facilities.
Eleanor Roosevelt Circle was an attempt to try something different, a mixed income senior facility, that turned out to be not what seniors wanted. Instead Eleanor Roosevelt still has some vacancies (correct me if I am wrong), and is largely a low income facility, which was not what was originally intended. However, it has been immensely successful in providing a Social Services Director on-site five days a week – for those with mental and physical disabilities, a wonderful adjunct.
Another problem in the housing arena that is occurring is the politicization of the issue. Developers are touting projects as necessary because they will provide senior housing. If the developer can’t get a toe-hold one way, they use the issue of senior housing as a fall-back position to get what they want. It back-fired with respect to Covell Village, but is being used as a tactic again and again.
Senior housing is a critical issue, but it has to be talked about cohesively, in a structured manner, in terms of what is good for Davis citizens. Too often developers build the wrong kind of senior housing – which brings in outsiders, but does not serve Davisites. If not carefully done, Davis may become a wealthy retirement community, with few young families with children living here. We are already seeing the results of poor planning – the decline in attendance which caused the school district to close a school.
Careful, thoughtful planning is needed, to provide APPROPRIATE SENIOR HOUSING FOR DAVIS CITIZENS WHO LIVE HERE NOW. It is the only way to ensure that rent increases remain manageable for those seniors on fixed incomes who cannot take a hit of an 8% rent increase every year indefinitely.
I do agree with Don Saylor on one point, and that is if Davis plays its cards right, we can be at the forefront of developing innovative senior housing options that do a better job at protecting the elderly, particulary the fragile elderly.
Please note I am Vice-Chair of the Davis Senior Citizens Commission, speaking as a private citizen.
Lois Wolk’s office has already been notified.
I contacted an organization called CA Advocates for Nursing Home Reform. They gave a number of strategies that can be investigated. I have passed these suggestions along to Lamar and Sue, who seem to be supportive of the Atria Covell Gardens folks in a quest to reduce their rent increase.
I also contacted another organization called CALCRA (CAL Continuing Care Residents Association). One suggestion was for about ten residents to declare their intention to move from Atria Covell Gardens. It got me to thinking.
It seems to me what is really going on here is an attempt by Atria to make their facility more upscale. What I was told is they are making renovations to make the entire place look classier. Those who cannot afford the rent increase can possibly be moved to less expensive units, so no one will have to move. That frees up pricier units for those who can better afford them. I am not making a value judgment here, just an observation.
The other issue that also is of concern is the increase in acuity of care. When seniors are placed in assisted living facilities, there are two components to costs. The rent portion, and the assisted living services portion. As a senior ages, s/he usually needs ever increasing amounts of assistance, which becomes costlier as health declines.
It is not uncommon for families to move aging relatives from place to place, as the senior has ever increasing service needs to maintain health that require the dollar to stretch more. This was discussed at length at our last Yolo County Commission on Aging & Adult Services meeting, chaired by Mariko Yamada.
The Davis Senior Citizens Commission was asked to assist in this endeavor of holding off the rent increase. I would like to see a much larger discussion of senior housing in general, from independent living, assisted living, to skilled nursing care facilities.
Eleanor Roosevelt Circle was an attempt to try something different, a mixed income senior facility, that turned out to be not what seniors wanted. Instead Eleanor Roosevelt still has some vacancies (correct me if I am wrong), and is largely a low income facility, which was not what was originally intended. However, it has been immensely successful in providing a Social Services Director on-site five days a week – for those with mental and physical disabilities, a wonderful adjunct.
Another problem in the housing arena that is occurring is the politicization of the issue. Developers are touting projects as necessary because they will provide senior housing. If the developer can’t get a toe-hold one way, they use the issue of senior housing as a fall-back position to get what they want. It back-fired with respect to Covell Village, but is being used as a tactic again and again.
Senior housing is a critical issue, but it has to be talked about cohesively, in a structured manner, in terms of what is good for Davis citizens. Too often developers build the wrong kind of senior housing – which brings in outsiders, but does not serve Davisites. If not carefully done, Davis may become a wealthy retirement community, with few young families with children living here. We are already seeing the results of poor planning – the decline in attendance which caused the school district to close a school.
Careful, thoughtful planning is needed, to provide APPROPRIATE SENIOR HOUSING FOR DAVIS CITIZENS WHO LIVE HERE NOW. It is the only way to ensure that rent increases remain manageable for those seniors on fixed incomes who cannot take a hit of an 8% rent increase every year indefinitely.
I do agree with Don Saylor on one point, and that is if Davis plays its cards right, we can be at the forefront of developing innovative senior housing options that do a better job at protecting the elderly, particulary the fragile elderly.
two things that really bother me from the comments…
1)The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so.
OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways
2) this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
WHAT? We live in a Capitalist society..I pay enough in taxes so I don’t want to become a socialist society.
two things that really bother me from the comments…
1)The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so.
OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways
2) this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
WHAT? We live in a Capitalist society..I pay enough in taxes so I don’t want to become a socialist society.
two things that really bother me from the comments…
1)The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so.
OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways
2) this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
WHAT? We live in a Capitalist society..I pay enough in taxes so I don’t want to become a socialist society.
two things that really bother me from the comments…
1)The second thing I find concerning is that City Councilmembers if they could take action ought to be obligated to cancel their vacations and do so.
OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways
2) this is the logical outcome of relying upon for-profit private corporations to serve the general welfare.
WHAT? We live in a Capitalist society..I pay enough in taxes so I don’t want to become a socialist society.
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
“OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
Yes I would say the same thing regardless. Payment is irrelevant these people are public servants, they are elected by the citizens of Davis, and as long as they serve they have limited private lives and the duty to be available when called should an emergency arise.
For these seniors, this is an emergency.
If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans? This is a smaller issue affecting less people but for the individuals involved, just as grave.
“when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
The stipulation by both Sue and Lamar would be “if” something could be done, if nothing could be done the point is moot.
“OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
Yes I would say the same thing regardless. Payment is irrelevant these people are public servants, they are elected by the citizens of Davis, and as long as they serve they have limited private lives and the duty to be available when called should an emergency arise.
For these seniors, this is an emergency.
If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans? This is a smaller issue affecting less people but for the individuals involved, just as grave.
“when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
The stipulation by both Sue and Lamar would be “if” something could be done, if nothing could be done the point is moot.
“OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
Yes I would say the same thing regardless. Payment is irrelevant these people are public servants, they are elected by the citizens of Davis, and as long as they serve they have limited private lives and the duty to be available when called should an emergency arise.
For these seniors, this is an emergency.
If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans? This is a smaller issue affecting less people but for the individuals involved, just as grave.
“when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
The stipulation by both Sue and Lamar would be “if” something could be done, if nothing could be done the point is moot.
“OBLIGATED TO CANCEL?? These people get paid very little to serve…having them cancel vacations during the holidays is way out of line (if Sue wasn’t available would the comment be the same?)…when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
Yes I would say the same thing regardless. Payment is irrelevant these people are public servants, they are elected by the citizens of Davis, and as long as they serve they have limited private lives and the duty to be available when called should an emergency arise.
For these seniors, this is an emergency.
If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans? This is a smaller issue affecting less people but for the individuals involved, just as grave.
“when they probably can’t do anything anyways”
The stipulation by both Sue and Lamar would be “if” something could be done, if nothing could be done the point is moot.
“If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans?”
Hell no. What good would that do? We have a city manager and a police chief and a fire chief, etc. Those pros would take care of things. The city council would only get in the way in a disaster. “Let’s pass a motion declaring this a disaster!”
“If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans?”
Hell no. What good would that do? We have a city manager and a police chief and a fire chief, etc. Those pros would take care of things. The city council would only get in the way in a disaster. “Let’s pass a motion declaring this a disaster!”
“If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans?”
Hell no. What good would that do? We have a city manager and a police chief and a fire chief, etc. Those pros would take care of things. The city council would only get in the way in a disaster. “Let’s pass a motion declaring this a disaster!”
“If there were a disaster in town, wouldn’t you expect the council to meet regardless of private vacation plans?”
Hell no. What good would that do? We have a city manager and a police chief and a fire chief, etc. Those pros would take care of things. The city council would only get in the way in a disaster. “Let’s pass a motion declaring this a disaster!”
anon. 8:16 –
most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads, their kids being educated in socialist schools, fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments, taking planes at socialist airports, the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities, their mail delivered by socialist postal workers, or getting pension checks from social security.
where the profit margin/”free market” has been used to provide a necessary public service, more often than not it has served the shareholders a lot more efficiently than the public good. the question is whether affordable elder care housing is that sort of public good or not.
anon. 8:16 –
most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads, their kids being educated in socialist schools, fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments, taking planes at socialist airports, the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities, their mail delivered by socialist postal workers, or getting pension checks from social security.
where the profit margin/”free market” has been used to provide a necessary public service, more often than not it has served the shareholders a lot more efficiently than the public good. the question is whether affordable elder care housing is that sort of public good or not.
anon. 8:16 –
most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads, their kids being educated in socialist schools, fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments, taking planes at socialist airports, the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities, their mail delivered by socialist postal workers, or getting pension checks from social security.
where the profit margin/”free market” has been used to provide a necessary public service, more often than not it has served the shareholders a lot more efficiently than the public good. the question is whether affordable elder care housing is that sort of public good or not.
anon. 8:16 –
most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads, their kids being educated in socialist schools, fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments, taking planes at socialist airports, the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities, their mail delivered by socialist postal workers, or getting pension checks from social security.
where the profit margin/”free market” has been used to provide a necessary public service, more often than not it has served the shareholders a lot more efficiently than the public good. the question is whether affordable elder care housing is that sort of public good or not.
“most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads”
They would if they had a choice. In countries (like Mexico) where there are private pay roads and free socialist roads, everyone who is not direly poor prefers the well-kept pay roads.
“their kids being educated in socialist schools”
You have got to be kidding, here, right? The majority of people who have the money to buy a private education for their kids do so. The vast majority of our really bad schools are government owned and run inner-city schools which cost a tremendous amount of taxpayer dollars and provide an inferior product.
Public schools would go out of business if they did not have a guaranteed monopoly. Give the parents vouchers to choose a private school for $8,000 per year or continue on in their public school and 80-80% would flee the public schools.
“fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments”
People everywhere complain about the high price of fire services and the incompetence or brutality of the police. However, it is unfeasible to have competitive emergency services, and therefore providing them in the marketplace makes no sense.
“taking planes at socialist airports”
Airports are generally good, only because the privately owned and operated airlines are paying for them. Go to socialist countries (such as the old USSR or Cuba, today) and you will see what kind of airport you get with socialism.
“the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities”
Much like police and fire, water cannot be provided through the tap in a competitive market, so it makes sense to have a monopolist (govt) do this. However, it is interesting how many millions of Americans are terribly unhappy with the tap water they get. They pay more money per gallon for bottled water than they pay for gasoline or milk.
“their mail delivered by socialist postal workers”
Yeah, no one ever uses UPS or FedEx. It is illegal for those companies to deliver first class mail.
“or getting pension checks from social security.”
Getting the money is popular. Paying it into SS is not. Realizing that your rate of return on investment is 1.3% annually makes anyone with a brain realize that socialism pays badly (and is going broke to boot).
Whoever the moron is who wrote this manifesto in favor of Marxism ought to do two things: Go to Cuba (where I was born) and see how well Marxism really works. And study economics, to understand how a free-market economy does better for everyone lucky enough to live in a capitalist country. You likely have never lived under a socialist regime. Once you do (when you only have one newspaper to read — the one owned by the government), one tv channel to watch (the socialist one), one company making movies (the government movies), you will appreciate what freedom and capitalism are all about. Remember, no country without a free market economy is free. If you value freedom, you have to value capitalism. They always go together.
“most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads”
They would if they had a choice. In countries (like Mexico) where there are private pay roads and free socialist roads, everyone who is not direly poor prefers the well-kept pay roads.
“their kids being educated in socialist schools”
You have got to be kidding, here, right? The majority of people who have the money to buy a private education for their kids do so. The vast majority of our really bad schools are government owned and run inner-city schools which cost a tremendous amount of taxpayer dollars and provide an inferior product.
Public schools would go out of business if they did not have a guaranteed monopoly. Give the parents vouchers to choose a private school for $8,000 per year or continue on in their public school and 80-80% would flee the public schools.
“fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments”
People everywhere complain about the high price of fire services and the incompetence or brutality of the police. However, it is unfeasible to have competitive emergency services, and therefore providing them in the marketplace makes no sense.
“taking planes at socialist airports”
Airports are generally good, only because the privately owned and operated airlines are paying for them. Go to socialist countries (such as the old USSR or Cuba, today) and you will see what kind of airport you get with socialism.
“the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities”
Much like police and fire, water cannot be provided through the tap in a competitive market, so it makes sense to have a monopolist (govt) do this. However, it is interesting how many millions of Americans are terribly unhappy with the tap water they get. They pay more money per gallon for bottled water than they pay for gasoline or milk.
“their mail delivered by socialist postal workers”
Yeah, no one ever uses UPS or FedEx. It is illegal for those companies to deliver first class mail.
“or getting pension checks from social security.”
Getting the money is popular. Paying it into SS is not. Realizing that your rate of return on investment is 1.3% annually makes anyone with a brain realize that socialism pays badly (and is going broke to boot).
Whoever the moron is who wrote this manifesto in favor of Marxism ought to do two things: Go to Cuba (where I was born) and see how well Marxism really works. And study economics, to understand how a free-market economy does better for everyone lucky enough to live in a capitalist country. You likely have never lived under a socialist regime. Once you do (when you only have one newspaper to read — the one owned by the government), one tv channel to watch (the socialist one), one company making movies (the government movies), you will appreciate what freedom and capitalism are all about. Remember, no country without a free market economy is free. If you value freedom, you have to value capitalism. They always go together.
“most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads”
They would if they had a choice. In countries (like Mexico) where there are private pay roads and free socialist roads, everyone who is not direly poor prefers the well-kept pay roads.
“their kids being educated in socialist schools”
You have got to be kidding, here, right? The majority of people who have the money to buy a private education for their kids do so. The vast majority of our really bad schools are government owned and run inner-city schools which cost a tremendous amount of taxpayer dollars and provide an inferior product.
Public schools would go out of business if they did not have a guaranteed monopoly. Give the parents vouchers to choose a private school for $8,000 per year or continue on in their public school and 80-80% would flee the public schools.
“fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments”
People everywhere complain about the high price of fire services and the incompetence or brutality of the police. However, it is unfeasible to have competitive emergency services, and therefore providing them in the marketplace makes no sense.
“taking planes at socialist airports”
Airports are generally good, only because the privately owned and operated airlines are paying for them. Go to socialist countries (such as the old USSR or Cuba, today) and you will see what kind of airport you get with socialism.
“the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities”
Much like police and fire, water cannot be provided through the tap in a competitive market, so it makes sense to have a monopolist (govt) do this. However, it is interesting how many millions of Americans are terribly unhappy with the tap water they get. They pay more money per gallon for bottled water than they pay for gasoline or milk.
“their mail delivered by socialist postal workers”
Yeah, no one ever uses UPS or FedEx. It is illegal for those companies to deliver first class mail.
“or getting pension checks from social security.”
Getting the money is popular. Paying it into SS is not. Realizing that your rate of return on investment is 1.3% annually makes anyone with a brain realize that socialism pays badly (and is going broke to boot).
Whoever the moron is who wrote this manifesto in favor of Marxism ought to do two things: Go to Cuba (where I was born) and see how well Marxism really works. And study economics, to understand how a free-market economy does better for everyone lucky enough to live in a capitalist country. You likely have never lived under a socialist regime. Once you do (when you only have one newspaper to read — the one owned by the government), one tv channel to watch (the socialist one), one company making movies (the government movies), you will appreciate what freedom and capitalism are all about. Remember, no country without a free market economy is free. If you value freedom, you have to value capitalism. They always go together.
“most americans don’t complain about driving on socialist roads”
They would if they had a choice. In countries (like Mexico) where there are private pay roads and free socialist roads, everyone who is not direly poor prefers the well-kept pay roads.
“their kids being educated in socialist schools”
You have got to be kidding, here, right? The majority of people who have the money to buy a private education for their kids do so. The vast majority of our really bad schools are government owned and run inner-city schools which cost a tremendous amount of taxpayer dollars and provide an inferior product.
Public schools would go out of business if they did not have a guaranteed monopoly. Give the parents vouchers to choose a private school for $8,000 per year or continue on in their public school and 80-80% would flee the public schools.
“fires being put out by socialist fire departments, crimes being stopped by socialist police departments”
People everywhere complain about the high price of fire services and the incompetence or brutality of the police. However, it is unfeasible to have competitive emergency services, and therefore providing them in the marketplace makes no sense.
“taking planes at socialist airports”
Airports are generally good, only because the privately owned and operated airlines are paying for them. Go to socialist countries (such as the old USSR or Cuba, today) and you will see what kind of airport you get with socialism.
“the tap water in their houses provided by socialist public utilities”
Much like police and fire, water cannot be provided through the tap in a competitive market, so it makes sense to have a monopolist (govt) do this. However, it is interesting how many millions of Americans are terribly unhappy with the tap water they get. They pay more money per gallon for bottled water than they pay for gasoline or milk.
“their mail delivered by socialist postal workers”
Yeah, no one ever uses UPS or FedEx. It is illegal for those companies to deliver first class mail.
“or getting pension checks from social security.”
Getting the money is popular. Paying it into SS is not. Realizing that your rate of return on investment is 1.3% annually makes anyone with a brain realize that socialism pays badly (and is going broke to boot).
Whoever the moron is who wrote this manifesto in favor of Marxism ought to do two things: Go to Cuba (where I was born) and see how well Marxism really works. And study economics, to understand how a free-market economy does better for everyone lucky enough to live in a capitalist country. You likely have never lived under a socialist regime. Once you do (when you only have one newspaper to read — the one owned by the government), one tv channel to watch (the socialist one), one company making movies (the government movies), you will appreciate what freedom and capitalism are all about. Remember, no country without a free market economy is free. If you value freedom, you have to value capitalism. They always go together.
lazy b_st_rd wrote:
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
12/20/07 9:15 PM
Take an Evelyn Wood speed-reading course, dude.
lazy b_st_rd wrote:
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
12/20/07 9:15 PM
Take an Evelyn Wood speed-reading course, dude.
lazy b_st_rd wrote:
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
12/20/07 9:15 PM
Take an Evelyn Wood speed-reading course, dude.
lazy b_st_rd wrote:
elaine roberts musser:
could you please say what you have to say in less than 5,000 words? i’m too busy to read war & peace & elaine roberts musser. remember: more is less.
12/20/07 9:15 PM
Take an Evelyn Wood speed-reading course, dude.
Cuban bastard…well put…wu ming (anonymous)…any response? anon 8:19
Cuban bastard…well put…wu ming (anonymous)…any response? anon 8:19
Cuban bastard…well put…wu ming (anonymous)…any response? anon 8:19
Cuban bastard…well put…wu ming (anonymous)…any response? anon 8:19