The Davis School District is conducting a survey to determine whether parents think teachers are assigning too much homework to their kids. They sent out surveys to parents and district administrators now plan to use the findings to reshape the district’s homework policy. We will find out officially next week what the results of the more than 2000 parental responses.
The Sacramento Bee ran a story on this yesterday and it was suggestive that the results would indicate that there is too much homework.
“We have a lot of responses of grave concern that kids don’t have access to balance in their life… (Homework) limits family time and regular hang-out time for the students.”
The article continues:
“Kellison said several Davis parents are concerned that teachers aren’t following the current policy – and are handing out excessive assignments.
“I want to see homework that helps the teacher in assessment, not homework that is busy work. Do kids really need to do 50 math problems? Or do they need to do three to five to see that they got it?… I can’t leave the house anymore without someone stopping me at the market or somewhere along the way to talk about homework. Kids want to do other things besides school. They need time to look under a rock.”
It also quotes, Pam Mari, a district administrator who suggested that there are parents who do not believe there is enough homework.
The Vanguard has a copy of the surveys which were also sent to the students and teachers. The District also has a homework policy that ought to guide the assigning of homework.
On the policy which is five pages long, the district lists their philosophy:
“It is the belief of the district that significant educational gains can be made by students through well-defined homework experiences directed by teachers and supported by parents/guardians. Homework is defined as school related and assigned work completed beyond the regular school day. The teacher, as the educational professional, directs the classroom; thus the school and classroom setting is the primary and most effective teaching and learning environment. Homework supplements and complements the teacher’s instruction.”
The district then lists five criteria:
- Homework shall be an extension of class instruction. Key concepts should be introduced in class prior to the assignment of homework.
- Homework shall reinforce classroom learning objectives and district standards.
- Required assignments should generally be appropriate to the ages and abilities of the students in the class or for that board-adopted curriculum/course.
- Homework assignments shall concentrate on areas or subjects of demonstrated student need. Teachers may vary homework assignments amongst students accordingly.
- The type of school work assigned as homework should generally be that which a typical student for that class can be reasonably expected to accomplish outside of the classroom, independent of further teacher direction or teacher instruction. However, it can be appropriate for a student to need some parent support to complete the homework.<
The policy goes on to list guidelines for longterm homework assignments, student responsibilities, policy for absences, policies for the maximum amount and coordination of homework which is grade level dependent, and overall guidance and support.
Homework ranges from 10 to 20 minutes in first grade to two to three hours for high school and possibly longer if in Advanced Placement or Honors classes.
Here’s the general policy on the maximum amount of homework:
“The amount of the time needed for students to satisfactorily complete grade level homework will vary depending upon several factors, including but not limited to the student’s age, prior academic achievement, capabilities, motivation, parent/guardian support, and type of curriculum in which the student is enrolled. Within that context and as a general guideline, the maximum average total daily amount of short term homework assigned to a typical student, Monday through Thursday, would not be expected to exceed the times below. This policy does not preclude a teacher from providing to students at one time all assignments that will be due within a given week or more. The time limits take into account differing levels of academic rigor. These times include any family reading activities as well as long-term assignments.”
The surveys themselves assessed the average amount of homework per night, whether it is deemed too much, too little, about right, or varies. Whether it is a problem and how much it is a problem. Finally there are a series of questions that ascertain whether the amount of homework interferes with other activities and responsibilities. The student survey is similar.
Is there a such thing as too much homework?
In an article that School Board Member Susan Lovenburg wrote, she cited researched that noted that there is enough research on homework to support about any position, as long as conflicting studies are ignored. However, Cathy Vatterott’s research is summarized:
- The amount of time spent doing homework is positively correlated with achievement.
- Homework appears to be more effective for older students than younger students.
- As more variables such as ability of the student and quality of instruction are controlled, the correlation between homework and achievement diminishes.
- At each grade level, there appears to be an optimum amount of homework. “
Ms. Lovenburg in general seems relatively skeptical that too much homework is being assigned.
My Perspective
I understand that some believe that children and students need balance in their lives and certain I am not going to advocate the assignment of busy work, but I actually believe that we are starting in the wrong place by taking a survey of parents, students, and teachers and use those are points of determination for whether or not we assign too much homework.
So let me start at a different point and that question would be–what is the optimal result? We are a nation who is falling behind the rest of the world in terms of education and educational performance. We are a state that is cutting billions from its education budget both K-12 as well as higher education from community college on up. As such, I simply refuse to make the assignment of home subject to public opinion of the parents and the students. And I’m fairly certain that is not what is happening here.
The first question I would hope that we could ascertain is whether the district’s policies are being adhered to. The question of perception is also probably important.
But the next question ought to be, what is the ideal amount of homework? What amount will help students achieve the best–after all that is really what homework is about–learning.
The issue of balance comes up both in the quotes from Ms. Kellison and the survey itself. Some will point out that some of the Asian countries reach high levels of achievement at very high prices on the mental health of their students and as a result there is a high suicide and stress rate in those countries.
That’s undoubtedly one reason why the survey assesses whether or not homework is too onerous due to other activities whether they be religious activities, arts, sports, volunteer, family responsibility, or other conflicts.
The bottom line here is that the literature and research seems conflicts on how much homework is enough and it seems likely that this community will want more balance in students lives.
I just cannot fathom that we are assigning too much homework and that this would be emphasis for examination. Given the fiscal and budgetary times we live in, the threat that education is under, I think students face far more perils than too much homework. That is probably a nice problem to have that a lot of district simply do not have the time to worry about.
All of that being said, I still find it rather remarkable that we are even having this discussion in the first place. It seems a very Davis thing to do.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
Your perspective appears to be based on broad generalities and suppositions. You “cannot fathom” that the schools are assigning too much homework, yet you have absolutely no idea how much they ARE assigning. You also refer to national test scores, yet do not consider that the DJUSD consistently scores 10’s across the board on the standardized state tests. I have heard of first graders being assigned packets of 25 dittos PER WEEK, every single week. Dittos? Do you imagine that these are meeting goals 3, 4, and 5 of the district’s homework policy? Do you imagine that spending this amount of time on homework, on top of the amount of time spent in school, is healthy for growing children?
Children NEED to have time to rest, to play, to interact with their families and friends. Focusing completely on academics to the detriment of every other important HUMAN need is short-sighted and damaging.
And please, don’t get me started on the hypocrisy of, “I would start I guess with a confession that you could not make me do homework when I was in school or at least until I got to college and got far more serious about my studies.” I never fail to be astonished at things that people are willing to do to others, when they would never tolerate being subject to such things themselves!
Why don’t you try out a set of high school homework for a month? Choose a child’s high school schedule and get the homework each day for a month. Do it and turn it in ON TIME for grading. And yes, do that around your work schedule, as the children have to do it around their school schedule. Please, write, let me know that you’re willing to put your money where your mouth is. If you’re not, then you have proven once again that you are a hypocrite.
We have two children with long experience in the school district, so I can say something about this. I think that most teachers in the district do not assign too much homework. There are definitely some teachers that don’t have very high academic standards, although that’s not exactly same question as whether they assign too much or too little homework.
We have encountered two types of teachers who arguably assign too much homework. Some of the AP classes at the high school are really impressive. I wouldn’t want these courses to be “watered down”; I think that it’s great to have some courses taught to high standards. But some of these AP classes do seem to go into overdrive and assign reams of homework.
There are also a few teachers who do not have particularly high academic standards and don’t even seem to know the material all that well, but still have some huge assignments. Sometimes there is a buildup to some crowning project that I don’t think is all that important. I’m not sure that these teachers entirely know what they are assigning. It’s not good to bury students in make-work that doesn’t even teach much of the subject. I have not seen this at the high school, but I have seen it in lower grades.
Again, I think that the amount of homework in most classes in DJUSD is okay, possibly about right on average.
In defense of David, I don’t think being a bad student at one point and now being more stringent makes him a hypocrite. And as I understand it, he probably is a little preoccupied right now to do homework. Rumors do travel far in Davis, you know.
I still find it rather remarkable that we are even having this discussion in the first place. It seems a very Davis thing to do.
In that context, I would have preferred to see an article about other pressing and current topics connected to education, such as the “Race to the Top” bills recently passed by the state leg., or the very recent discussion about higher education vs. prison funding. This topic here would have been more appropriate on a slower news day.
By the way, here’s the link to the article you reference in today’s piece:
[url]http://www.sacbee.com/education/story/2440808.html[/url]
It’s interesting to read the 18+ comments to the article on their site.
I tend to agree that the way you handled this piece was rather fluffy. There are serious issues raised regarding the goals and methods of public education, not the least of which is the lack of (or ignorance of) any rigorous investigation of the relationship between methods, including homework, and desired outcomes. Do some research and provide a starting point to a more enlightened discussion. Your blog is most valuable when you add information, not conjecture.
Susan Lovenburg’s full article can be found on DavisVoice.com by clicking [url]http://www.davisvoice.com/2009/10/news-from-davis-schools/[/url].
In the Governor’s State of the State address yesterday, he pledged to “draw the line” on cuts to public schools and higher education in this coming budget. It will be very interesting to see how that will happen. Here’s a good summary of the State of the State:
[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/07/MN0I1BEDAN.DTL[/url]
Any further cuts to public education, and you will probably see an impressive number of districts statewide go insolvent, meaning unable to meet monthly payroll to employees or pay other bills.
As a teacher here in the district, I get both sides…..you need to assign more homework, you assign too much homework…..There does have to be a balance, but also a balance with after school activities. I’ve had students who not only go to school; they play two sports, an instrument (sometimes two), take language classes, do scouts and/or church groups. Its no wonder they can’t concentrate at school to do class work, let alone homework. I thought this survey was a complete waste of time. I had to give it to my class; we ended up having a lesson on how to write a survey because for students it was poorly written and redundant. I had my students write one paragraph on how they honestly felt about homework, most thought it was a good way to see if they understood the lessons we did in class that day but these are elementary students.
I do have a child in high school – they have copious amounts of homework in both regular and AP classes. I do think the high school homework policy needs to be revamped; it is only high school not junior college. But then again, look at the classes the high school offers, some of these classes could be cut, saving the district money, saving elementary teaching positions and giving students a good foundation for college.
For “In the trenches” comment that “it is only high school not junior college.” I would suggest that AP classes are indeed junior college level education. They can get credit for college work, so they should have to work as hard as college students. I do agree with “In the trenches” comment about the huge amount of outside of school activities overwhelming the student to the point that they have little time or energy for their classroom work, much less their homework.
I agree that it’s not very satisfying for David to just make a theoretical argument that it can’t be a major issue and there surely isn’t too much homework. If we want the school board to be useful for anything, then yes, they should find out how much homework is assigned and compare that to some reasonable standard and to what families in Davis want. There is such a thing as too much homework and the district should have its eyes open.
But I also have an uneasy feeling about the school board’s message, if one year they build a fancy football stadium, and the next year they say that the teachers give too much homework. It could be interpreted as saying that the district cares too much about academics, and that we should all relax and watch some sports instead.
Back off the teachers if you can’t back them up. Just stop bitching behind the teachers’ backs – especially if they have high standards. Too many of you parents are afraid of your children – that they won’t love you if you demand anything of them. I taught high school for 35 years and I heard it all, so I quit – and none of my students flunked out of college. Parents, please grow up. I know you’re all experts because you went through the educational system – please spare the rest of us your endless opinions. If you want to help, ask the teachers how you can. And follow their lead. Otherwise, save it.
[i]There are serious issues raised regarding the goals and methods of public education, not the least of which is the lack of (or ignorance of) any rigorous investigation of the relationship between methods, including homework, and desired outcomes.[/i]
I don’t like the idea that every decision made by the school district needs to be perfumed by some scientific study of education psychology. I have nothing against science and education research has its place too, but why don’t we start with common sense. If children work more, they will probably learn more of what the schools teach, but they will have less time to play. Let’s just start with how much people want the kids to work or play. Even if you did point to this or that study, the real decision might well be as simple as doing what people want. But it is a good idea to find out how much homework is assigned, and what is a usual amount for school districts in the US.
It is true that at some point, children stay up so late doing homework that they don’t learn as much because they don’t get a good night’s sleep. But (a) you don’t need new papers in the Journal of the American Medical Association to tell you what is a good night’s sleep; you can tell from common sense and also sleep doctors have known it for a long time. And (b) homework is not the only reason that kids stay up too late, even in Davis.
[i]I would suggest that AP classes are indeed junior college level education.[/i]
I come from a highly academic family and so does my wife, and our son has not only taken AP classes, but now also taking a course at UC Davis through the extension school. I have no trouble with teenagers leaping over the boundary between high school and college, if they are ready. Even so, I think that some of the AP classes at DHS are really a lot of work, sometimes more work than lower-division UC Davis classes. I greatly respect these courses, but some restraint is in order.
Other AP classes are a reasonable amount of work, and I just don’t agree with “In the trenches” about the regular classes. As far as I have seen, the regular classes at DHS range from those with a generally reasonable amount of work, to courses with very little work and low expectations.
On whether a high school should offer AP or not:
If a school district wants to see its students be competitive for college admissions, then it really helps if their students can make the argument that they can handle college level work. Taking AP classes is one of the best ways to make that case.
One way that the quality of a high school is measured is based on how many of their students take AP tests. If that’s the only way a high school is judged, then it’s a very narrow-sighted approach. Nevertheless, those measurements in turn are what attract students and families to the district.
“If you want to help, ask the teachers how you can.”
Bingo.
I really can’t think of any reason for the district to even have a “homework policy” to “guide the assigning of homework.” The only way you’ll get good teachers is if you let them innovate.
I was a junior high instructor of math and science many years ago. I made sure that any homework assigned would not take more than a half hour a night. Kids already sit in school for 7 hrs a day – they do not need to go home and sit another 3 or 4 hours doing homework. When my students were tested against brighter students for determination of whether they were ready for Algebra in the ninth grade, my “slower” eighth graders scored higher than all the rest of the students. How did I do it? I went back to the basics, including using teaching techniques like learning math tables by rote, mental arithmetic and the like. Most of the work was done IN CLASS.
My impression is that standards in general and the performance of the students in Davis are much higher than when I was in high school. I skated by doing almost no homework, ever. It’s also possible, as others have said, it could be out of control with some teachers.
What I wonder is if, especially with less-experienced teachers, there might be a disconnect between the amount of time a teacher thinks students are spending on his assignment and how much time they actually spend?
If there is a disconnect, one possible management solution is to improve the feedback mechanism to the teachers. That is, ask the students (or the parents of students) in advance to keep track of the amount of time they consume on a certain assignment; and then report back to the teacher those numbers. If the median amount of time is larger than expected, the teachers can make an adjustment.
I would also imagine that part of the problem of too much homework is too much in one certain week or another certain week, but not necessarily too much in a median week.
If that is the case, the principal perhaps should try to help spread out the workload by coordinating assignments by department. In other words, try to make sure that the week math courses have a heavy workload, physics and history don’t.
–Rich ([url]http://lexicondaily.blogspot.com/[/url])
If you want to help, ask the teachers how you can. And follow their lead. Otherwise, save it.em>
Been there, done that. There are problems though. One major one is that grading lags too far behind. You can’t address a problem unless you know a problem exists. Homework grading is either superficial or too late to be of much use to the student. Often the classes are structured with too much grade emphasis on final projects or tests. So, the kid does all the homework and fails the end project or test and the teacher is not culpable for failing to teach? How does that work?
Another problem is teachers lacking teaching skills. Especially in upper division math where, even in Davis, not all kids are blessed with the genetic cerebral and parental gifts used to overcome piss poor teaching. Homework becomes futile for a kid not having some grasp of the subject matter. This is a problem with too much reliance on homework. If the purpose is rote memorization through repetition, then repetition without enough understanding leads to memorization of the wrong stuff.
[i]Often the classes are structured with too much grade emphasis on final projects or tests.[/i]
I teach math courses at many levels at UC Davis. As I see it, the tests are the most accountable part of the grade. If you turn in good homework, I have no idea how much help you got from the TAs or from other students. It makes sense to count homework toward the grade as an incentive. But the tests do much more to show how much the students really learned.
[i]So, the kid does all the homework and fails the end project or test and the teacher is not culpable for failing to teach?[/i]
I don’t really like the concepts of “pass” and “fail”. I’ll fail students who don’t show up for the final, or bomb the final because they didn’t show up to class or do any homework. Beyond that, in a large class I would be happier just to report class rank to the administration and let someone else figure out the grades. I try to use a standard letter grade distribution, set to whatever curve.
After all, if you run or swim, or if you take the SAT, there’s no “pass” or “fail”, there is only placement. Obviously, whether you have a good teacher or a bad teacher, that doesn’t by itself explain getting a low grade or a high grade relative to the rest of the class. The students are all in the same boat.
[i]Especially in upper division math where, even in Davis, not all kids are blessed with the genetic cerebral and parental gifts used to overcome piss poor teaching.[/i]
If you are a student, you should take the level of math that is right for you. All I want to know is that my students are prepared for my class; it’s not my business why. Maybe you are prepared because you’re brilliant, or because you work really hard, or because of your parents, or because you had a great teacher the year before. I don’t want to know unless you want me to know. If you’re grossly unprepared, for whatever reason that is equally not my business, then it’s not my fault. I also don’t teach to punish or blame anybody. If you’re a student, then it’s my job to help you, and I’ll enjoy helping in any way that I can. Beyond that, I evaluate your work, not you as a person.
the tests are the most accountable part of the grade
I don’t disagree as long the subject is being taught well enough. My point was about homework. If it is not graded or not reviewed in some detail and early enough to do some good, then how would the student always know he or she is getting it? Finding out at test time is unacceptable. The job of a teacher is to teach. The job of the student is to learn. I was responding to the previous post that suggested everyone stop complaining and start following the lead of the teacher (I’m paraphrasing). It wouldn’t make sense to follow the lead of a teacher that is failing to adequately teach the subject.
I don’t really like the concepts of “pass” and “fail”. I’ll fail students who don’t show up for the final, or bomb the final because they didn’t show up to class or do any homework.
That sounds reasonable and fair to me, but at the high school, I know many kids – reasonably smart kids not blessed with the gifts – that would show up every day and do all the homework and be failed by the teacher based on test scores. I just don’t understand how these teachers can be satisfied with their performance. These are not AP classes.
If you’re grossly unprepared, for whatever reason that is equally not my business, then it’s not my fault. I also don’t teach to punish or blame anybody. If you’re a student, then it’s my job to help you, and I’ll enjoy helping in any way that I can. Beyond that, I evaluate your work, not you as a person.
Certainly at the college level, and to a lesser degree the high school level, you would expect students to ask for help when they need it. My point is that they may not know they need it until it is too late. I agree that no teacher should reward a student not showing up to class and not doing the work. But if reasonably intelligent students show up for class and turn in all or most of their homework, but bomb on tests, wouldn’t you start thinking that the homework isn’t doing the job or the teaching methods need tweaking? My problem with homework assignments is not the quantity that the kids are assigned; it is the quantity assigned exceeding the teacher’s capacity or interest to actually review it in enough detail to let the student know when he/she needs help, and to help teacher know when he/she isn’t getting through.
what’s happening is that the school is depending more so on homework than the actual learning environment for the child to learn. Home work is necessary, but all things in moderation.
we need to get back to fixing the class room environment. kids do well in DJUSD because the parents for the most part, have money for tutoring, and are well educated themselves. two parent homes where one parent works while the other has the privilege of staying at home to take care of the children and make them do homework for hours on end all contribute to good grades.
the other anomalies that don’t have the privilege of a high socio economic standing, are just that: anomalies.. they don’t need extra support to do well in school and can make it through with little help
i’ve seen these types of kids who were able to get by with about 30 minutes of homework a day and they were able to wiz through school with no problems.
the rest of us had to stay home and slave for hours and hours with little growth.
sux to be us.
Sherrill Futrell said:
“I taught high school for 35 years and I heard it all, so I quit – and none of my students flunked out of college. Parents, please grow up. I know you’re all experts because you went through the educational system – please spare the rest of us your endless opinions. If you want to help, ask the teachers how you can. And follow their lead. Otherwise, save it. “
Thank goddess you quit. You sound exactly like the kind of teacher that goes around demeaning and embarrassing students that aren’t quite up to par…..poof poof..
thank god you aren’t there to destroy any other kids’ lives.
i’m sure you loved the smart ones, but hated the dumb ones.
get that whip out Sherrill, I’m sure there are some kids out there that would benefit from your boot camp…
:Another problem is teachers lacking teaching skills. Especially in upper division math where, even in Davis, not all kids are blessed with the genetic cerebral and parental gifts used to overcome piss poor teaching. Homework becomes futile for a kid not having some grasp of the subject matter. This is a problem with too much reliance on homework. If the purpose is rote memorization through repetition, then repetition without enough understanding leads to memorization of the wrong stuff. “
Jeff Boone, I completely one hundred percent agree with everything you say….amen.
ps. i can’t seem to italicise your comments…how do i do that????
Another problem is teachers lacking teaching skills. Especially in upper division math…
Could you describe examples of good teaching skills in upper division math? I haven’t seen specific examples of that, though I have seen a couple of examples of students not asking for help when it was clearly available.
From last night’s school board meeting, it seems at present like the district will not be getting the $1 million in proposed salary/compensation concessions. For now it looks like that will mean an additional $1 million of cuts/layoffs.
Another problem is teachers lacking teaching skills. Especially in upper division math…
Let me try again: Could you go into detail about how lack of teaching skills are clearly the issue in upper division math?
My point is that if this is college prep level math, then at some point there has to be more of a shift in teaching to place some level of personal responsibility on students to speak up and take some initiative when they don’t understand. In one instance I have in mind, my own child constantly complained about not understanding or keeping up with the math, but refused to check in with the teacher when there were teacher tutor hours available. Eventually we resolved the issue and my child took more initiative, but it took 2/3 of the year to get there.
But I see that attitude reflected in some other students — venting over not understanding some concept, but not exactly taking advantage of available resources.
ps. i can’t seem to italicise your comments…how do i do that????
Melanie – include your email and I will send you some homework to help you figure it out. =)
Actually, just click the “italicize” button above and paste your text between the > < of the two HTML tags.
Could you describe examples of good teaching skills in upper division math?
I am results-oriented so when a reasonably intelligent kid shows up for class and does all the homework but still fails the class; I think it indicates a teacher with poor teaching skills, or maybe poor methods.
My two boys and many of their friends struggled through their high school math. In talking to them it became clear that they started out motivated, and then fell behind because they didn’t understand concepts as well as they thought they did. I would ask, “how did you do on the test?” Many times the answer was “I think I did okay”… then the bomb and a very frustrated kid.
My sense was/is, that many teachers of upper division math and science teach primarily to the A students – a feat that requires less “teaching” skill, and frankly less work – and not the struggling students. I think good teaching means that 90% of the class should understand the concepts before moving on to the next topic that builds on the previous. The remaining 10% are probably in over their heads, or don’t have good enough study and work habits.
[i]That sounds reasonable and fair to me, but at the high school, I know many kids – reasonably smart kids not blessed with the gifts – that would show up every day and do all the homework and be failed by the teacher based on test scores.[/i]
Jeff, first of all, in most of this discussion you sound a lot more like a human being and a lot less like a Republican/libertarian ideology robot, and I respect that. I don’t mean to be too condescending on this point; you’ve been reasonable enough on some other occasions too. But it is just true that political ideology has captured your imagination, and I think you should consider just how callous and unhelpful ideology can be.
If you get an F in a math class and someone else gets an A in the same class, then I could say that that shows that he’s a Producer and you’re not. If you think it’s unfair, then you’re a Moocher too; but if you take your lumps and admire that Producer who got an A, then maybe you’re Eddie Willers. In fact, a high fraction of people in the top 1% income bracket did do well in math class.
I could say that, but it would be obnoxious and I don’t think that the issue is that simple. It certainly is possible to teach badly or to teach only to the best students, and if you think that that is happening, then you at least deserve to be heard. (And I certainly don’t walk on water as a teacher. There are students who like me and students who don’t, and both deserve to be heard.)
Certainly homework should be graded in a reasonable amount of time. Students deserve that much, and they deserve a good textbook and clear explanations from the teacher. That much is fair.
But still, I have a lot of trouble with the way that you jump from a student failing the class to the teacher failing the student. A typical DHS teacher has more than 150 students throughout the day. They don’t have time to pull questions out of each student in the bottom half, and provide a clear answer to every question pulled out, and make sure that the answer sticks. Instead, students have a responsibility for their own performance.
Students who describe failing a test as “I think I did okay” don’t usually truly think so; usually they have put no thought into how they did or they are putting on airs. If your son snowed you with that line, how can you expect a teacher to come to his rescue before the test? My son has not always been above this handwaving, but I never stood for it. My argument is always, “Don’t be ashamed if the course is hard and you need help. But do not ever say you’re doing ‘okay’ if you’re actually in deep trouble. Real learning begins with knowing exactly what you know or don’t know.”
As for the idea of teaching only to the A students, in fact A students are not any happier with confusing explanations than other students are. It would be one thing if the “regular” classes went way beyond the state standards for mathematics and left most students in the dust; then you could say that they teach to the top students. But this is not true. Yes, the AP math classes go beyond the state standards, but the regular math classes are only at the state standards.
You’re hardly the only person who is “results oriented”. Districts are held accountable for STAR test results. But if you and others are “results oriented” with the teachers, the teachers have every right to be “results oriented” with the students. They have every right to assign grades based on class test results, especially if they themselves are graded on the STAR test results.
Very interesting and intelligent discussion. When teaching math particularly, it is important to feed concepts in small bite-sized pieces, and constantly review what has gone before. Why? Because Math builds on itself. If you fail to get basic concepts, you will not understand future material. Thus the need for constant review of old material, drill drill drill on basic concepts so it becomes ingrained, and not too much new material at one time. Homework needs to be corrected, so students know whether they got the right answers or not.
In my experience as a public school and junior college math instructor, I found students who are able to grasp the material will be motivated to learn more. If they are successful in the beginning, continue to succeed, they will continue to do well – even if only moderately bright. Humans have a natural thirst for learning, so long as the learning process is not overly difficult. So it behooves teachers to follow the techniques I listed above.
I worked in a junior college math lab for a while. Students would literally wait for the night I was available, and the door to my office for seeking help would be lined with students out the door, through the math lab and out in the hallway. Why? Because more often than not I would take the extra trouble to ferret out where the student was missing the boat on basics. Once they got the basics down, math became easy to learn. You could see it on their faces, when the light dawned/lightbulb went on.
Another example – had an eighth grader sent to me for special tutoring, bc she was doing so poorly in math despite being bright. It took quick work to figure out she didn’t know two multiplication facts – 8×7 = 56 and 9×7 = 63. Once she had that down, she returned to her class, made vast improvement to the point of being close to the top of her class. If I could figure out what the problem was, where was her teacher in determining her problem? I was teaching math and science at the time, doing side tutoring as well.
Sometimes I think teachers get into a rut, and burn out, bc a lot is expected of them in the way of extra duties. But on the other hand, teachers do get the summers off and all the holidays. But when they are teaching in the public schools, there isn’t any time to even eat or go to the bathroom during a regular school day. The conditions under which teachers teach can be appalling. I taught in a portable classroom, sometimes 42 to a class. I had to teach not only math for 4 periods, but had 2 periods I had to develop special classes, a different one each quarter. So I taught art, stock market investing, and whatever else I could think of to liven things up. But it was a killer to lesson plan for, and I only had 50 min. a day to do it. I came to school an hour hearly, left an hour late, and when teaching science, had to bring lengthy lab reports home to be graded. Teaching can be a tremendously tough job.
More on student responsiblity:
I have observed students at high school and college undergraduate level, and I note that there seems to be a certain breakthrough of maturity for students when they go from the anxiety of trying to guess (almost randomly) what’s going to be on a test? vs. asking themselves 1) what concepts have we been learning and 2) how might I be tested on those concepts in the upcoming exam?
I see a lot of students in the first category, which involves very little applied critical thinking ability to the study process, vs. the second situation in which a student is using personal critical thinking strategy to study for a test (maybe a kind of meta-thinking?).
I confess to being very much in the first category all through high school. Somehow I performed slightly above average, but not notably stellar. Midway through my first semester of college, I seriously feared not getting good enough grades to keep my financial aid began to adopt more the second strategy, which produced the better results I needed at that time.
Just a personal experience that shapes my perspective that a certain level of individual thinking and personal responsibility has to develop to perform at a college level. I think I see similar differences in approach to learning in others.
If a student can’t perform in the second category, then maybe a lot of rote problem work is needed to get some level of performance results. If a student can perform in the second category, then maybe they could get away with working fewer problems.
Jeff, first of all, in most of this discussion you sound a lot more like a human being and a lot less like a Republican/libertarian ideology robot, and I respect that.
Greg: there are real people stuck in their unbending worldview. I tend to value and have compassion for people of all stripes as long as they demonstrate a good heart, but I relentlessly debate ideas which might serve to introduce some little shred of cross-ideology understanding. I think we all mostly want the same thing; we just disagree on the path and methods. Mostly, I just love a good debate!
Although I seem to have an opinion on many things, there are a few topics that get more of my attention. Education is one of them. From an ideological perspective, a democratic free market system within a global economy is going to work much better with an educated workforce. I bet we agree with that; just maybe not always the path we would take to get there.
If you get an F in a math class and someone else gets an A in the same class, then I could say that that shows that he’s a Producer and you’re not…
Ha! No fair applying the philosophy of Ayn Rand to argue education! Actually, I can see how you might make that application; but education is actually in the “producer training” business. Within the business of teaching, the only producer in the Rand model is the teacher. The education of the student is the product. Teacher that demand equal pay even though producing less are the moochers, while high performing teachers are the producers that should be making six-figure comp. The teachers’ unions are the looters.
the teachers have every right to be “results oriented” with the students.
I know it is a different education animal, but I have done a lot of training in the corporate world. I have taught leadership, project management, programming, and database and software technology classes. Being “results oriented” as the teacher meant that I had to succeed in teaching all students the material before the class was done. It is different orientation than, I think, what you are suggesting. At the high school, the teachers demand results from the students and reward those that produce with an A. It is an orientation that the student is working for the teacher and will be rewarded with production. I think many teachers do look at their job/role that way. My orientation is that the student is a customer or client demanding quality teaching service from the teacher. When a reasonably intelligent student attends class and does the work and fails the class, I see that as more an indication of a failed teaching service rather than a failed student.
I know the job of public school teaching is difficult, but what meaningful job isn’t difficult?
[i]there seems to be a certain breakthrough of maturity for students when they go from the anxiety of trying to guess (almost randomly) what’s going to be on a test? vs. asking themselves 1) what concepts have we been learning and 2) how might I be tested on those concepts in the upcoming exam?[/i]
wdf, it really clears the air for you to say this. Again, I’m not saying that math teachers are above criticism, and I especially don’t claim that I’m a perfect teacher. But there is no question that student responsibility and maturity play a big role. Many students indeed think that you’re just expected to memorize stuff, that it’s fine to guess and flail if you can’t find a test question in your memory bank, and that it’s the teacher’s fault if just showing up to class and cramming the homework “didn’t work”.
For one thing, in my classes, I don’t like to test for memorization. I’d rather have problem-solving questions for which I’m happy to give away any definitions that the students want. Admittedly, it makes more sense as a college standard, but ideally high-school math classes would at least start in this direction.
Here is another point about responsibility and parents and all that. I think that many people have defined academic responsibility too much in terms of loyalty. There is an “eat your peas” philosophy. The good students are perceived as those children who clear their plates whether or not they like the food, while the bad students are perceived as those who just want to eat ice cream. This is not my philosophy. I see college students who work hard and feel that they should eat their peas, but if that is all that they bring to their studies, I feel kind-of bad about it.
In my opinion, the most important responsibility of students and parents, certainly in a difficult math course, is to take an interest in the material. That is the way to learn without memorizing. There have been studies that people learn only a small fraction of the words that they know from vocabulary lists; everything else sticks by seeing the words and wanting to use them. It’s the same with math. As a parent, you can jump into the material with your children. Even if you don’t feel all that qualified if it’s a difficult class, you can still say, “I am willing to look at some of the material along with you.” That is a much better endorsement than just, “Do your homework because it’s expected of you.”
It doesn’t help matters that some grade-school math teachers do not like math all that much. They should also endorse the material as interesting, and it needs to be sincere. The best teachers, including some great teachers in the Davis public school system, truly like math and it shows.
When teaching math particularly, it is important to feed concepts in small bite-sized pieces, and constantly review what has gone before. Why? Because Math builds on itself. If you fail to get basic concepts, you will not understand future material. Thus the need for constant review of old material, drill drill drill on basic concepts so it becomes ingrained, and not too much new material at one time. Homework needs to be corrected, so students know whether they got the right answers or not.
In my experience as a public school and junior college math instructor, I found students who are able to grasp the material will be motivated to learn more. If they are successful in the beginning, continue to succeed, they will continue to do well – even if only moderately bright. Humans have a natural thirst for learning, so long as the learning process is not overly difficult. So it behooves teachers to follow the techniques I listed above.
I agree 100%
Sigh, a phrase like “drill drill drill” is not all that far away from “eat your peas”. In fact, the whole debate over the right way to teach grade-school math depresses me. On one side, there are militarists who want to drill, drill, drill. On the other side, there are spiritualists who want creativity and teamwork and hate drill. Whatever happened to practicing for a purpose, thinking while you practice, and being creative with precision? Everyone understands that a good English class requires the right combination of drill and creativity. But in math, many educators are off on a tangent about whether students should be soldiers or hippies.
I also have trouble with a phrase like “thirst for learning”. I don’t drink math facts to quench a thirst. I like to think about math, and the facts are important tools. Again, a good writer is not just someone who is “word-thirsty”, but someone who has something to say.
Sigh, a phrase like “drill drill drill” is not all that far away from “eat your peas”….
I also have trouble with a phrase like “thirst for learning”…
I agree 100%
It doesn’t help matters that some grade-school math teachers do not like math all that much. They should also endorse the material as interesting, and it needs to be sincere. The best teachers, including some great teachers in the Davis public school system, truly like math and it shows.
Teachers that successfully teach subject they dislike should actors instead.
[i]Being “results oriented” as the teacher meant that I had to succeed in teaching all students the material before the class was done. It is different orientation than, I think, what you are suggesting. At the high school, the teachers demand results from the students and reward those that produce with an A. It is an orientation that the student is working for the teacher and will be rewarded with production. I think many teachers do look at their job/role that way.[/i]
Not me on either count. As I see it, the students are working for themselves, and I don’t “demand” anything from them. I don’t believe in any set list of facts called “the” material. Mathematics is an open book; it’s a topic that stretches out to the horizon. The syllabus is an agenda, and a schedule for what I plan to explain. The idea that the syllabus is a one-size-fits-all “product” for the students is unreasonable. It’s my job to offer the students a good study plan, not to guarantee a specific result at the end. Each student might learn the material better or less well, and I would like to only tell each student where he or she placed.
Consider how unreasonable it would be to demand the same result from every student if I coached track. Am I supposed to say that an x-minute mile, for some x, is “the product”? There are able-bodied children (say in 8th grade) who don’t want to run even a 12-minute mile. If “the product” is an 8-minute mile, then I’d be a failed teacher for every student who takes 14 minutes. If “the product” is a 15-minute mile, then are all the students equally successful, even if one student ran a 6-minute mile and another one took 14 minutes? Is it straying from the job to do anything for students who can run faster than the standard when the year starts? Okay, PE is a special case where placement shouldn’t necessarily translate to a grade, but still, placement is important.
No, this whole vision of “the” material, “the product”, and “drill drill drill” is not reasonable for any subject, math or PE or anything else, unless the students are all the same. Even if they are all the same, the students would learn less than the could, or they would all “fail”, if you set the bar without knowing their caliber. They will learn more if the material is flexible and the grades define a broad scale.
[i]I know the job of public school teaching is difficult[/i]
On the contrary, if you turn teaching into a factory job, it actually gets simpler and easier, it’s just soul-draining. Let’s say that you expected to be tough on the teachers by demanding that 70% of the students meet a set standard. Then maybe at the beginning, some heads would roll. But soon enough, in order to have any teachers still on the payroll, the standard would sink to wherever the 30th percentile happens to fall, and teaching anyone above that line would be punished for straying from the job.
[i]Teachers that successfully teach subject they dislike should actors instead.[/i]
I heard a rumor that a certain DJUSD teacher openly told her class that they aren’t alone if they hate algebra, she also hated it when she took it. I don’t remember the name of this teacher; I also don’t want to know her name and I don’t know if the rumor is even accurate. Unfortunately, the rumor hits close to home. As I said, my favorite math teachers in the district are the opposite of this.
The Governor’s budget proposes only $1.2 billion in cuts to education in the form of reductions to district-level administrators. I don’t know what level of cuts that means for DJUSD, but it’s a relief that the overall cuts are much less this year.
It still has to go through the legislative meatgrinder, though.
“Sigh, a phrase like “drill drill drill” is not all that far away from “eat your peas”. In fact, the whole debate over the right way to teach grade-school math depresses me. On one side, there are militarists who want to drill, drill, drill. On the other side, there are spiritualists who want creativity and teamwork and hate drill.”
I would guess you have not taught remedial math students. I apologize if I am incorrect in this supposition. I have taught many remedial math students, also many math students who are “bright but not working up to their potential”. More often than not, it was because they did not know basic math facts. Why? Because the emphasis was away from drilling students, but rather getting them to “understand” math. The result? Students who literally were drawing five dots to a row, four rows each, and counting the number of dots to figure out what 5×4 was – in the eighth grade! Tried and true methods like drill on basic facts and mental arithmetic are key to going on and learning new math concepts. If you don’t know the basics, you will not be able to learn higher concepts in math. (I would also point out you don’t need to know how a refrigerator works to use it).
This technique is also used at the college level, when every math course I ever took reviewed basic concepts before launching into the new material. Drill of basic concepts over and over again causes the math major to be ingrained with basic math concepts as second nature.
Secondly, constant review of old material and feeding new material in bite sized pieces is also essential. Once a student starts succeeding in understanding math, the excitement of initial success breeds enthusiasm to continue learning, and hence a “thirst for knowledge” is developed over time. These are simple techniques, I have seen them work extremely well, while other teachers wondered why their students were struggling and mine were not. Why would you be against teachers developing a “thirst for knowledge” in their students? Your logic escapes me…