A Unity Rally on Wednesday evening at Central Park brought out several hundred people and saw headline speakers including Mayor Robb Davis, Congressman John Garamendi, and UC Davis’ new Chancellor Gary May.
Speakers expressed shock and dismay at the state of affairs which saw the presence of neo-Nazis in the streets and a president who has, in their minds, failed to adequately call out the situation and denounce hate. As Congressman John Garamendi said, “This is no place for that kind of bigotry.
“Speak the words, Mr. President,” the Congressman said. “And if you can’t, then get the hell out of that office.”
Mayor Robb Davis related a story of being in Virginia right after President Obama was inaugurated and being stunned to hear someone express shame to be in America, and he called it a wake-up call to the fact that hatred still exists. “I think we’re all awake in the last seven months,” he said on Wednesday. “I’m not talking about waking up because I’m proud of it. I’m ashamed to say I woke up.”
He said, for people of color, “these things have never gone away.” The mayor said, “We traded Jim Crow for mass incarceration. We traded red lining with exorbitant interest rates and exclusionary housing practices.
“We traded the war on poverty for the war on drugs,” he added. “We know where that’s led us.”
He said, “All of those things are the basis of a systemic racism that exists in this country and I had the privilege for many years just to ignore it.” He said he’s lived a good life, “but all around me there are people who were experiencing a different reality and they still are.”
The question, he said, is now that we have woken up, “now what?” He said, “I believe that if we are going to confront these issues, if we’re going to confront differential impacts of the effects of police, if we’re going to confront inequitable funding of schools, if we’re going to confront the school to prison pipeline, then it’s got to be local efforts.”
He said that “organizations that are here… these are people who are digging into our community today…” “If we’re really serious about confronting racism and exclusion in this country, it has to be through local effort.”
Congressman John Garamendi called us “a great nation because there are so many different Americans.” He said, “This country will not tolerate hatred of any kind in any way.”
He confronted the people who believe that “Hitler was right,” responding, “no how, no way, there will be no neo-Nazis in this nation.
“That hatred, that bigotry cannot find roots in our nation,” the Congressman said. “There are those who believe this nation can be white-only, let them come to California and see the strength of diversity.”
He said that those who believe that white nationalism has a future, “they are not looking around and seeing what happens when cultures mix, when people come together to build a more perfect union, therein lies our strength.”
Congressman Garamendi sent a message to Mr. Trump. “We expect the President of the United States to stand for justice, to stand for equality and to stand against bigotry of all kinds.”
“Mr. Trump please stand as other presidents before you have stood, strongly for unity, strongly for justice, strongly for diversity and, please Mr. President, be a leader that will cause us to put down those that cause racial hatred,” he said. “Please Mr. President, be a leader for God’s sake, speak out strongly, tell the world that this is America and tell the world and tell those who march with the KKK, who stand with the neo-Nazis… tell them no way. Not in America.
“Mr. President, be our leader,” he said. “Please stand for justice.”
He added that “men and women have died because of the bigotry of the KKK, because of the Nazis.”
Kate Mellon-Anibabi from Statement of Love spoke and said, “In Charlottesville this week we got to see racism, the kind that is blatant and alerts our senses to pure evil. The kind that makes us sick to our stomachs. The image of white men holding torches, spewing hate and physically hurting people in the name of white supremacy is appalling.”
She called this “the type of racism that’s easy to denounce and separate ourselves from.” She said, “We are the good white people.” She said that “saying these kinds of things is problematic” and “we need to stop.” She said that “this is the complacency that fuels the fires of white supremacy.
“The reality is that we have an obligation to do work here in this community,” she said. “We need to show up for people of color in our own communities that are experiencing trauma daily.
“Sometimes a Statement of Love needs to be tough love,” she said. “Please don’t just come out to fight against racism in Virginia, we can show up for our community right here.”
Rabbi Greg Wolfe called it “incredibly painful and horrifying to be here today in 2017 in America to denounce statements and repudiate actions that belong in the dustbin of long ago history.”
He said that these people do not reflect “the value of the majority of Americans who are truly just, compassionate and good people.
“But I am glad that we are here together, today,” the Rabbi said. He said that, in Jewish tradition, the Rabbis asked why it is that the world was only created with one person, “and we are taught that the reason is that we are part of one family and no one can claim that their lineage is better than anyone else’s – that we are all equal – and if you destroy one person, it’s as if you destroyed the entire world.
“Hatred thinks that it can receive a helping hand?” he said. “We must say no – not in our country and not in our time.”
Finally Chancellor Gary May spoke for first time before the community.
Over the weekend, he put out a statement to the community: “We condemn the violence and hate on display in Charlottesville today. Freedom of speech is not about provoking and inciting violence. Our thoughts are with our University of Virginia colleagues.”
He said the image of the neo-Nazis marching across the campus was “almost too much to take,” “enraging,” “horrific” and “frightening.”
He quoted James Baldwin, who said “to be black in America is to be in a constant state of rage, and that’s what I felt as I watched those events unfold.”
Chancellor May said that college campuses have always been at the forefront of debate and discussion in our nation, “however there’s a difference between protected and prohibited speech. Incitement to violence is not speech. Terrorism is not dialogue. Freedom of speech is about new ideas, not old hate.
“Some have even said that there were many sides responsible for the escalation of this conflict,” he said. “As my friends have said, he is who you thought he was.” He said, “There were not many sides, there were only two – there was good and there was evil.”
—David M. Greenwald reporting
This entire disaster is especially upsetting to me because I feel like vulnerable people are being manipulated and exploited to serve personal agendas and egos of the selfish but powerful few.
Yes racism exists. It’s a scar of our history along with resentment, inferiority complexes, generational poverty, and broken families. All need to be treated and healed. But it seems the Americans suffering most often have their wounds salted and their injuries challenged all as a measure for those who are mostly exempt to play hero or dress up their extended tantrum as something other than what it is just so they can say “look, I told you so. Look, I told you he’d be lousy at this…. luckily WE’RE here to save the day.” It feels disingenuous to me.
It angers me to see people’s brokenness exploited for personal gain. It angers me to feel that children and innocents may be endangered unnecessarily all so that some sore losers can prove a point. (Assuming there’s not an even more sinister agenda at work).
It angers me to see people who were mostly minding their own business exercising their right to be a$$holes on their own property in towns their family has lived in for centuries; be deliberately provoked into behaving exactly the way I suspect “someone” wanted them to. “See, we told you.”
When I look at the big picture; I’m seeing some powerful bullies acting as puppeteers. Pulling the strings of the same people who have been getting played this way since slavery; black and white alike. Especially the poor and working class. And these bullies don’t give a rip who gets hurt or what gets destroyed as long as they get their way.
Again i ask; why is taking down the statues the first step? Why not adding other statues and plaques to offer a more complete history? Why not education and unifying activities in these Ccommunities? Why not “Forgiveness Festivals” where history is shared along with food, music, and creative tributes to our common greedy selfish ancestors as well as those who paid the price for us to live in the imperfect but world of possibilities we have today? Why was the first step one so provocative, dramatic, and arguable in its symbolic benefits? It smells like bs to me.
I know there’s a lot of beautiful people in this world and quite a few live in Davis. I don’t doubt that most have their hearts in the right place. But I hope those quick to wear vagina hats or come out to Central Park and hold signs among like-minded and lifestyle friends –
I hope they make some effort to truly befriend a black person who is poor, uneducated, and ordinary. And I hope also that they make an effort to listen to a “bigot” compassionately and try to understand them while subtly offering opportunities for them to see a bigger world than they do.
Im not very religious but I think of “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Everyone is doing the best they can. If you understand that, forgiveness comes more easily than anger and you’ll know that to really make a difference without massive collateral damage – you need to meet people where they’re at and equip them with the ABILITY to do better. If you really care, thats what you do.
I hope I’m putting the cart before the mule and proven wrong but I’m very worried about the people in SC and Baltimore. I’m really hoping they don’t suffer more as a consequence of this bs.
***and if anyone does sit with a “bigot” and listen to him/her ; make sure it’s a poor uneducated ordinary one of those as well.
Extra points if they’re christian and pro-life
Did this person feel that way because of Obama’s race or was it because of Obama’s policies?
I wish I had a nickel for everytime I’ve heard or read someone who has made that same statement since Trump won the election.
You should email the Mayor and ask him
The mayor probably doesn’t know the answer to that either unless he can read minds.
I listened to the conversation and DO know the answer. No mind reading necessary.
Even if it was because of Obamas race – SO WHAT?! People have the right to be prejudiced, superficial, immature etc etc
Don’t we have a refugee crisis, environmental and financial problems, issues with disease, inept legal and law enforcement systems etc etc
why do Americans spend so much energy on the war against mean words? “Sticks and stones….”
and while it’s certain blacks get the Lyons share of prejudice directed at them, AA culture tends to be the least PC of all when many of them talk about everyone else. And again, so what?!
why give so much power to words and symbols?
“People have the right to be prejudiced, superficial, immature etc etc”
And people have the right to criticize those who are prejudicial. But with words come policies and action.
“why give so much power to words and symbols?”
Because it is words and symbols that shape our view of the world. Words and symbols are the primary means that we develop a perspective on the world that lies beyond our immediate senses. Certainly we have all of the problems that you mentioned. But who we blame for these problems, who we credit for solutions, which options we choose and which we discard are all based on our view of how the world works. This we primarily gain through words and symbols which are embedded in our environments from infancy on.
A child who is not taught to hate a person of another color will not experience that emotion. No child is born hating Jews or Muslims or Christians. That hatred must be taught. The means of such teaching, just like the message of love, is taught through words and symbols. That is why they have so much power.
That makes one wonder how many children were present at the Davis Islamic Center to hear the Imam’s speech?
Claire
“I feel like vulnerable people are being manipulated and exploited to serve personal agendas and egos of the selfish but powerful few.”
I see the point that you are making. However, I think that you may be making the assumption that you know the motives or content of the heart others. Have you sat down and spoken with any of these people whose motives you decry ? Have you listened to their reasons for opposing racism with an open mind ? Just as I do not comprehend the fears of racists, perhaps you do not understand those who stand in opposition. I am one who did predict this outcome, based on Trumps previous comments in favor of eugenics and the fact that he had the support of David Duke and other prominent white supremacists….and yet I have not once said, “I told you so” until now. I do not say so for any personal gain but to point out that sometimes a truth is just that…. a truth.
As for the question about what to do with the statues and monuments, I believe that is up to the individual communities to decide through democratic processes just as was done in Charlottesville. I do not believe that it is the right for others to come from across the country into their community and dictate to them what they should do. A local statue should certainly be under local discretion.
Hi Tia!
” I am one who did predict this outcome, based on Trumps previous comments in favor of eugenics and the fact that he had the support of David Duke and other prominent white supremacists….and yet I have not once said, “I told you
——–
I am not a Trump (nor Hillary) fan myself. However Trump did not ask these cities to start removing historical monuments. This is a most ridiculous move that surely would provoke to local communities they’re being taken from. And I do suspect that those hellbent on seeing the worst of their Trump expectations manifest ASAP were all too eager to throw this failproof test out here.
I have known quite a few proud liberals… I appreciate them. However I have also gotten the impression that many enjoy feeling superior to “less cultured” whites as well as any minority that can make them feel like a hero. They like human pets and glamorous colorful guests in their social circle. At the end of the day I haven’t found them to be any less racist than most “rednecks”.
Im of African-american descent and surely no confederacy sympathizer but I too feel a little melancholy that our historical monuments are being taken down… they have new meanings now and it’s important to reflect. That some troubled souls value them for their darkness shouldn’t take precedence over what they mean to me and other Americans. Treating them this way validates their value being exclusive only to bigots – which is fallacious and insulting to all Americans. And it also provokes the simple American who has not yet had the opportunity to evolve beyond his inherited bigotry… it baits the worse of who he/she is. I think this is very wrong, counterproductive, and dangerous.
and no, the choice should not be up the local communities because these are American historical monuments. They belong to America. A big part of why racism persists is because we need MORE education on our history, not less.
Sure enough but when you start getting into policing people’s character in their personal lives – it’s an infringement of human rights and it also breeds resentment and discord. And it’s really just not very productive. You cannot forcibly change what someone feels or thinks. So you’re just going to create a lot of unnecessary drama. There will be people who stay on their side of the tracks most their lives and that is okay.
Most “bigots” aren’t activists outside their opinionated conversations with friends and family. And inevitably; because America is diverse, opportunities eventually lead most lineages to metropolitan areas, and sexuality dictates a lot – eventually most bigots today will end up being a grandparent to a “black” child. And in most cases – they end up loving them dearly. Love changes a lot. You have to give it time.
Let people come ’round in their own time.
“when you start getting into policing people’s character in their personal lives”
“Let people come ’round in their own time.”
I would be fine with this if those who foment hatred would keep it limited to their personal lives. But marching on Charlottesville with torches chanting “Black lives don’t matter”, “White Sharia now” and “Heil Trump”, are not exactly keeping their “character in their personal lives”. They are imposing it on a previously peaceful community. Would the German Nazis have “come around in their own time” ? Probably, but only after having exterminated the Jews and anyone else they deemed inferior if they had not been opposed. If they had been opposed sooner, perhaps all of those innocents would not have had to die.
I am not going into politics. I do not need any more money. I am not seeking fame or prestige. And yet, I cannot remain silent and watch this country slide into a theocratic, white supremacist controlled dictatorship. What ever problems we have must be addressed. But fascism is not the way. I cannot and will not remain silent while they take their vile philosophy ( to which they are entirely entitled privately) public and spread it across the nation.
Tia there’s no doubt that the Chartlottesville march was an awful display of racism but it was not proactive on the part of those marching… They were very directly and (I believe) deliberately provoked. 100%
Had this provocation not been crafted so cleverly to make it impossible for it to not be a race issue; I’m sure plenty of non-whites and non-racists would have been marching to keep the monuments as well… Most intelligent black thinkers believe we need to reflect on slavery and know MORE of the history behind it. However, emotion turns the mind off for most people. And even the brightest are being manipulated through this game.
and the worst of the bigots surely were called to action with this provocation. Still I don’t doubt there were some non-racists even in that crowd; but who would they march with? This was literally a set up imho. A lot of people were boxed into the positions that whatever powers that be wanted to put them in. This is a game. And sadly, if more lives are lost over it – it will probably be innocent ones.
Tia I share your belief in words and symbols and all the beauties and atrocities contained there in. However; this is rather subjective and can lean toward the magical… which i love – But recognize that it has its place.
And the power of some symbols (probably all) is based on what WE attribute to it. We give everything we behold power. We decide it’s meaning. Hiding from truth seems to be too popular nowadays… in many arenas.
“Tia there’s no doubt that the Chartlottesville march was an awful display of racism but it was not proactive on the part of those marching… They were very directly and (I believe) deliberately provoked. 100%”
You are incorrect and a part of the problem. That you do not see that, places you in the camp with Trump and his brown shirts. Take a trip to Germany today and ask how they feel about NAZIs.
Tia’s “Would the German Nazis have “come around in their own time” ? Probably, but only after having exterminated the Jews and anyone else they deemed inferior if they had not been opposed. If they had been opposed sooner, perhaps all of those innocents would not have had to die.”
is spot on. (My dad went to Spain to get his licks in early and got labelled a Red for it. McCarthy nearly turned him into one)Now we need to get serious about ridding ourselves of the traitorous Trump. Cut off the head, the body dies or at least slithers back under their rocks.
John,
You don’t have the authority to put me in anyone’s camp.
Youre comparing some regular”racist” (or maybe someone who is just really proud of their history or values it) to nazis…
Most the people marching would have probably been at work or sitting with friends drinking a beer had they not been directly and severely provoked.
I am sure someone could provoke plenty of black communities the same way. And if the blacks came out acting a damn fool AFTER being provoked, who would you compare them to?
you can say what you want but I assume you’re white (?). Forgive me but I feel like I know a little bit more about the black experience than you.
Cool story about your dad. ?
“You don’t have the authority to put me in anyone’s camp.”
You put yourself there. There are certain moral absolutes.
If you don’t stand against evil, you stand with it.
I’d agree Tia (your 8:37 post), if it was a “Measure S(tatue)” vote… if the entire City voted, instead of just 5 on the dais… I doubt whether any of the current council ran on the platform of statue removal.
In fact, Tia, I think you hit on the right way… a democratic vote of the voters of the City and not just 5 representatives… and the rest of us stay (the ****) out… the concept grows on me…
BTW, at the beginning of the Civil War, slightly more Blacks lived in Charlottesville/environs than Whites… 600-something free Blacks… rest were slaves
Well hopefully they move the monuments somewhere rather than demolishing them as I do hope more kids are educated on all the villains and heros of slavery. It will help them have more empathy for conditions in the world today…
I read Baltimore is next. I really hope this doesn’t lead to a string of riots that costs lives… The evil these statues specifically represented was dead but this foul move is sure to bring it back to life. Great PR move for the otherwise “has beens” ???
Claire
I believe in individual personal responsibility. There are many responsible ways to respond to “a set up” even if that were the case, which we will just have to disagree on. A hate march is the solely responsibility of the participants, not anyone who might have derived secondary gain. I feel very differently than you about the statues. I believe that they should be kept as educational tools. But where they are maintained is an entirely different issue. I do not believe that they should be kept where a majority of the population do not want them. I believe that a national or regional museum dedicated to their history is a far better solution.
“Did you notice that nobody is talking about the stupid city council’s provocative decision to remove the statue cost 3 lives and many injures. I don’t how theses city council members who voted yes feels about the victims and their family . I hoping that good lawyers will teach the City of Charlottesville cronies a lesson they never forget.”
Exactly Jerry, couldn’t agree with you more. Steel toe kicking the hornets nest from a safe distance and watching the show… while meeting in their safe communities and on social media to protest the nature of hornets. ??♀️ Absurd.
Baltimore is next and that’s a scary thought.
This debate is going on all over the country, especially in the South, and has been for several years now. This decision didn’t come out of nowhere and the council didn’t act arbitrarily and without the context of what other communities are doing.
These statues were erected mostly in the early 1900’s as Jim Crow laws were expanding all over the south and racism was being codified in local laws, housing covenants and unequal educational systems. Many or most of them were cheap generic statues manufactured of poor quality materials and hastily installed. You may wonder why it’s so easy for many of them to be torn down? It’s because of what they’re made from.
The monuments we install in our parks and public places reflect who we are. People who put up with the racist symbolism of these monuments are finally saying they won’t tolerate that any more. In many of those cities and states, I don’t think a public referendum is an appropriate way to go because of the history of voter suppression and blatant violation of voting rights inflicted on minorities there.
If it’s a “provocation” to remove symbols of Jim Crow and the segregated South, then that provocation is long overdue. Donald Trump is on the wrong side of this issue and on the wrong side of history. That’s unfortunate, though not unexpected.
Don I just saw your post on this…
ill stop arguing this because we all have different perspectives. But among my many problems with this a huge one is it’s loudest supporters are not the ones being put in harms way. So this provocation may be long overdue as you say, but when done so hastily regardless of the probable consequences; whose lives are put on the line? Thats the worst thing about this.
and you’re dangling the bait over the “racists” you’ve provoked saying they have a choice on how they’ll act… ok – so you’ve labeled these people as domestic terrorist targeting blacks… and then you drop the “personal responsibility” burden on their shoulders over whether black children and families are now in danger.
ya, sorry it doesn’t sound like you really care about these people as much as you care about your politics and proving a point.
There are hundreds if not thousands of these things all over the south. They’re taking them down everywhere. Sometimes the white supremacists are making a big deal out of it. But you are blaming those who remove them for the reactions of the racists.
Got it. Yep, that absurd insult pretty much ends the conversation.
Howard
“a democratic vote of the voters of the City and not just 5 representatives”
A point of agreement. However, I would also observe that perhaps that is what we did see in one way. The crowds estimated at the Nazi march were estimated to be in the hundreds with many from outside the city. The candle carrying crowds at last nights vigil in Charlottesville were estimated to be in the thousands almost entirely local since it was reported to have been organized by individual word of mouth since they did not want it spread on social media. That might be seen as an informal and far less expensive “poll” of what the majority of Charlottesville residents wanted.
Without getting deeply into numbers (no basis to agree or disagree), the key take-away is that there were a lot of folk Friday and Saturday NOT from the “community” (point of agreement)… particularly the ‘permitted’ demonstrators… that was definitely orchestrated… but, also, the small fraction of counter-protesters who wanted to ‘get it on’ as to violence, ALSO came primarily from outside the area.
Last night’s vigil appears to have been spontaneously ‘organized’ (at at points, it was obvious it wasn’t all that organized) and was probably 98% local (point of agreement). [most of the other 2% was probably the media]
I watched a lot of that vigil, as televised by CNN… my take-away was it was more about peace, and grief, for the loss of lives, and injuries… didn’t hear one word about a statue (to say it was about that statue would be a stretch that would require one hell of a bungee cord — probable disagreement). I heard not only grief, wish for civility, but also a rejection of confrontist/violent behaviors. Particularly from ‘outsiders’… just as the WS,KKK,N, et al. used the statue as an ‘excuse’ to act out very badly, I think it is wrong/incorrect to assume the vigil was about the removal of the statue.
But neither of us were there, so on the latter, we are both speculating…
Tia we will agree to disagree but I wonder if you’ll feel the same way if more lives are lost (if these first 3 aren’t enough)?
I do agree with their being used as educational tools. Now, sadly, theyll be yet another one available only to luckier/more privileged kids.
The education should have happened BEFORE the removal imho. And when I look at these monuments, what I see is space beside them that needs to be filled with monuments to fighters, heros, and people who changed. Were that done, I doubt most would feel the need to remove them… just my take.
mostly I think any ssupposed benefits of removing a statue… a statue… already weren’t worth the three lives lost in the process.
In fact, I bet if everyone who voted to have it removed had been offered $100 bucks instead, most would have taken the money. That’s how insignificant this really is if we put a price tag on it. Price tag tests never fail.
There is probably a fourth ‘life lost’, by ‘his own hand’, and his pedal foot. Believe it is unlikely he will return to society for a long time, and will probably have no chance for a productive life when he is allowed back in. A ‘suicide driver’, if you will.
If he is sentenced and serves in the general prison population, he may well never leave prison without wearing a body bag… not saying that’s right, but am saying that is likely what is.
It seems to me that some are trying to do just that (sometimes violently). With no understanding of free speech, as supported by the ACLU. Ultimately, this is making the situation even worse.
The bottom line is that (most of this type of) speech is protected, like it or not. And yet, some fail to understand this, and want to “prevent” it by any means (legal, or not). (That’s a stated “goal”, of some.)
I Agree 100% Ron,
Nothing good comes of this. I think this is not only careless and irresponsible but scary. I am shocked at how many people are too blinded with their ideas about racism to see a much bigger picture.
“Well hopefully they move the monuments somewhere rather than demolishing them”
None of these monuments has been slated for destruction. The only one that has been destroyed was pulled down by vandals disguising themselves as antifascist protesters. Vandalism is not warranted. Relocation clearly is.
“The evil these statues specifically represented was dead”
The evil of racial disparity is anything but dead. It had only taken on new manifestations and gone largely dormant. The proof of that statement is numeric. The number of white supremacist groups has grown dramatically over the preceding decade and this is true not only across the nation, but here in California where there are no Confederate statues being used as an excuse to come out and intimidate communities. While Trump did not start this, he has certainly fanned the flames and chosen his side when he made the statement “us” when speaking of the white supremacists at the march, which he quickly “corrected” as soon as he realized what he had said. If it were only one gaffe, I would have accepted it as such. However, he has openly bragged about his superior genes and “good German blood”. He and his father practiced racial discrimination in housing. His entire campaign was based on divisiveness and installing hate and fear of anyone designated as the other. This is not spin. All of it is available on taped interviews on Google which I am not sophisticated enough to cut and paste. The proof is plain and in his own words. Trump is an avowed racist and hate and fear monger, in his own words.
Tia I agree racism is alive and unwell. I just so not think removing historical monuments is an effective way to address it. This is just instigating more polarization and in the process destroying bits of history.
Holding people to a standard based on how you’d react to a situation that is NOT provocative for YOU but IS a kick to the gut for them – is absurd. This is as bad as cops bullying a hot headed teen until he reacts and then punishing him for it.
again i say that most people voting to have them removed would have rather received a check for $100. That should put things into perspective for you. I’m not saying this based on the assumption that they’re poor. I’m saying this based on mmyself and the many black Americans I know and am related to. That’s how insignificant this statue was before these riots… And had they been offered the option to add “their” side of history to the monument, that too would have been satisfactory and surely less provocative.
But no options were given. They were told/reminded of all the awful things this man’s life included in relation to their ancestors and unhealed resentments – and then asked if they want it taken down… ??♀️ No brainer on that one… the hands were guided.
And I DO believe it was because a few people wanted to prove a point and say (or really SHOW) that they knew “exactly what would happen because of Trump…”
And if that’s not the agenda in this – I’m actually more afraid.
“Did you notice that nobody is talking about the stupid city council’s provocative decision to remove the statue cost 3 lives and many injures.”
Jerry and Claire,
Where is your belief in individual responsibility? There are an infinite possible number of reactions to the decision to move a statue. One could ask for a re evaluation on the part of the city council. One could write letters to editors and to state representatives and senators. One could sue in an attempt to block the removal legislatively. One could stage seminars to teach about the history and explain their point of view. One could peacefully gather without any weapons or hate banners or slogans. But all of these and many, many more options were rejected in favor of a deliberately violence provoking, hate filled march. The choice of a violent response to an undesired outcome rests completely and entirely on those who planned and executed the march. To claim otherwise is to deny individual agency. These fascists were not made to come and promote violence. They did so of their own free will.
From what I’ve seen on videos, this statement might not be true.
I suspect that you don’t support violence from either side. Or, do you believe that the white supremacists’ views are so vile that a violent response is “justified” (legally, or morally)? Should they be “prevented” from making such statements and marching through streets? (Some apparently believe so.)
(I must have accidentally “ignored” your comments, since I can’t see them while logged in.)
Well I just hope a whole bunch of black children and their parents don’t end up victimized by riots… nor any innocent people for that matter
Just to have some statues removed….
while all these great “sympathisers” march and post from the comfort of their high rise condos and charming bungalows in their affluent and educated neighborhoods
Even if it will give them some good gloating material for why their preferred president should have won.
“And if that’s not the agenda in this – I’m actually more afraid.”
Well I think that you should be more afraid. I certainly am afraid. I believe that we have a known racist white supremacist in the White House now as demonstrated by his own words and actions. I do not think, but know that the number of white nationalists groups has been increasing. We have seen violent take overs of public property by armed militias in the last few years that have nothing to do with removal of statues. The Bundy armed take over of the National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon being the most prominent of these.
What I believe is happening is that these previously underground groups are becoming more emboldened. They have said so in their own words with both the KKK and other white supremacist groups openly backing Trump. They are now jubilant, empowered, and openly seeking excuses to use the most violent, intimidating strategies available knowing that their actions will be condoned and possibly even justified by the WH.
I am afraid. But what I am afraid of is not the relocation of controversial statues to museums. It is the take over of our country by a white nationalist, Christian theocracy based dictatorship. If you listen to 45, VP Pence, DeVos, Sessions with regard to their goals for the country, this is exactly what they envision, and they are in power. Edit
Ron
I do not believe in non defensive violence ever. I am a pacifist. However, in attempting to equate the two sides, I would have you note that the night before the intended “Freedom of Speech” rally was when the torch parade with the various vile chants occurred. There were no opposing violent protesters at that time. So their hate filled activity was, in my opinion, entirely unprovoked and their choice.
It was not until the next day that there was violence from the opposition. I do not condone this in anyway, but would also point out that the group that Heather Heyer was walking with was withdrawing in appropriate response to the order to disperse. It was only then that lethal force was perpetrated. I do not believe that a moral equivalent can be drawn here.
Tia – your post only reinforces my suspicion about this move to take down statues this way. The real benefit of doing so is subjective and extremely minimal relative to the negative sentiments and chaos it’s instigating. And on the most malign side of the spectrum I believe it’s to create a circumstance that can “prove” Trump to be what certain people want him to be.
And maybe he is that man but it’s one thing for someone to be something and another for them to be peidgeonholed into it. I know firsthand.
Ultimately my concern is not for Trump but for the people I feel are being placed in harms way just for others to prove a point.
***also there’s nothing wrong with someone being proud of their heritage. German genes are good, as are many others. Depending on what physiological or cultural tendencies you value; all genes can be called “good”. But I certainly like saying the origins of MY genes are the best… it’s good to be proud of who you are….)
I’m failing to see how a hate-filled activity during the previous evening is a justification for violence on the following day.
Regarding the woman that was killed, I suspect that it might only be a matter of time before someone does something similar to the supremacists. (Thereby turning the victim into a martyr, and strengthening the “cause”.)
In any case, I don’t think it’s “helpful” or particularly informative to compare levels of violence. Once it starts, violence tends to escalate.
I really do have some concern that those of us who don’t support the supremacists’ views fail to understand what free speech means. (It does NOT mean that anyone has a “right” to violently oppose/shut down such views.) I’ve repeatedly seen examples of this view, on campuses and elsewhere. It’s truly astonishing.
(I can’t see your statements unless I’m logged out.)
Just a small nit to pick- the central park 5 probably got exonerated despite plenty of evidence they were guilty. Look at the evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Armstrong_Report
Karl: Not sure what that has to do with my comment. I’ll read your reference, though.
I recall Trump calling for those 5 to be prosecuted. (I think he placed an ad/article regarding his views, in a New York newspaper.) There was a PBS program regarding this case, which strongly suggested that those 5 were not guilty of that crime.
Claire
“Well I just hope a whole bunch of black children and their parents don’t end up victimized by riots… nor any innocent people for that matter
Just to have some statues removed….
I am completely with you on the first statement. I hope no more innocents are injured. I hope no one else is injured at all regards of guilt or innocence.
However, if you think that this is just about having some statues removed, I think that you are perhaps unaware of the longstanding background of Trumps racism and institutionalized racism and those who would maintain it. When he was first getting into real estate many decades ago, he and his father had a practice of not renting to minorities. He has made public comments about his superior genes and “good German blood”. He was a vocal advocate for the death penalty for the falsely convicted teens in the Central Park jogger attack. Throughout the campaign he pitched to his mostly white supporters the idea that our country’s problems are due to “others” ( meaning non whites and non Christians). He attack Barack Obama as a Kenyan founder of ISIS. ( Nothing racist there, right ?) He has on his staff as high level advisers 3 self acknowledged white supremacists: Bannon, Gorka, and Miller. Gorkas wife is head of a division that has cut funding to detection and monitoring of white nationalist hate groups. He named as his AG, Jeff Sessions, a man so racist that even the GOP would not advance him to a higher judicial position because of his blatant racism.
This is about far more than the removal of statues. This is an attempt at the replacement of our government, imperfect as it is, with a white supremacist theocracy. This cannot stand unchallenged even if we are imperfect in our attempts to prevent it.
“Guilt” or “innocence” of what? (Having “intolerable” views?) Or, are you referring to participation in violence?
I hope that no one views my comments as supportive of racist views. I’m only referring to the ability to engage in free speech, without being subjected to violence as a result.
That violence also “makes news”, which probably strengthens the “cause”.
Tia –
again in this drama created by removing these statues seems to be an all too convenient platform for everyone to start in on why Trump should not be president.
And if the TRUE motive behind removing these statues is just to extend the hysteria over 45, then shame on whoever is behind his for exploiting vulnerable people to serve their political agendas.
Where were these “unity” people — and this goes for our new UCD Chancelllor — when the imam from the Davis Islamic Center called for the annihilation of the Jews? (We know that Robb Davis was busy kissing this imam’s tomato.) Guess the imam’s “hate speech” falls outside Chancellor May’s moral bailiwick.
Somewhat off topic but relevent as far as all the anti-Trump passions and the ideas about socialized education and healthcare
After being in Europe for 2 years; I have gained some insights I didn’t have before:
College Education is free in most of Europe, true. But it’s also impossible to get a high paying job without one. In America a good salesperson or skilled worker can make six figures with/without a degree. The very cheap cities in Europe have a terrible job market. Businesses are HIGHLY regulated and very very hard to start; entrepreneurs are rare beyond owning a pizza shop or something.
Racism is much less pronounced but it doesn’t equate to anyone being nicer to anyone else. A lot of Europeans are kind of unfriendly and judgemental to everyone equally lol (by comparison to Americans). All that said; there are a lot of great qualities as well…
But the grass isn’t “greener”. America picks on itself too much. You want a utopia or a society where everything thinks and speaks the same. This is unrealistic.
Claire
Super and so true description of the Europe as the new EUSSR
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
George Orwell 1984
Claire
“the most malign side of the spectrum I believe it’s to create a circumstance that can “prove” Trump to be what certain people want him to be.”
I may be misinterpreting your statement, but it seems to me that you are claiming that calling a person out for what they really are ( as stated in his own words, not some left wing spin), is worse than actually being that thing. This is a classic “kill the messenger” approach. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.
“it’s good to be proud of who you are….)”
Agreed that it is fine to be proud of who you are. As long as that does not mean that you judge others as being inherently inferior because of who they are. This is what is wrong with Trumps approach. Remember his statement that Judge Curiel could not be objective, not because of his judicial leanings or because of his politics, but rather because of his Mexican heritage. If this is not the essence of racism, I do not know what is. Remember his irrational and unconstitutional plan to ban all Muslims. This is not usual and normal pride of heritage, it is racism and xenophobia.
“You want a utopia or a society where everything thinks and speaks the same. This is unrealistic.”
The only people that I see calling for this are those who want a white nationalist state. Those who appreciate diversity and seek it actively do not desire this version of “utopia”. I deliberately moved to a much more diverse area of town specifically for that attribute. My “utopia” would include people of every color, religion, faith or lack thereof. It is the exact antithesis of what the white supremacists and separatists are seeking.
I believe that people have a right to be themselves without having their shortcomings challenged for sport. I believe everyone is battling a few demons, regardless of what position or title they hold.
I also believe that everyone has a wealth of goodness inside of them and it can be inspired or suppressed by our surroundings – especially people in positions of power. And i believe anyone who wants to be president is probably an egoist. I think Americans have more power than they think or else care to recognize when it comes to their influence on our current president.
If Trump is the end to all things good in America, then I think it would have been the same end different story with Hillary
I think a lot of Americans who believe themselves to be well meaning are acting like spoiled brats and sore losers. And just not being as productive as they could be in bringing more good to our communities because they’re too occupied with proving how bad the man in the White House is.
I didn’t realize that there was a more “diverse” area of Davis. 🙂
Got to run for awhile.
A quick look at the ethnic demographics of the schools would educate you in that regard. And when Valley Oak was still functioning, it was the most diverse of all.
http://djusd-ca.schoolloop.com/resource/resources?d=x&id=1368005138794&group_id=1356617245223
Don: I hardly think that the ethnic demographics of local schools accurately reflects the demographics of Davis. (Not with so many out-of-towners sending their kids to Davis schools – and without being subject to the school district parcel tax.)
Davis has got to be the “whitest” (and/or most Asian) city anywhere between parts of the Bay Area and Roseville/Folsom.) (Not sure if that also generally applies to the demographics of Affordable housing complexes.)
The demographics are distorted by the interdistrict transfers, but to put it simply: there are far more Hispanics in East and South Davis than in other parts of town. That is reflected in the demographics of the schools there. Also, most of the lower-income housing in Davis is in old East Davis, which has an impact on the demographics. You can see the difference in the demographic makeup of Holmes vs. Emerson. This is getting pretty far off topic, so I’ll just leave it at that.
Don: O.K. – thanks for the clarification.
From my “anecdotal observation”, there doesn’t seem to be very many African-Americans in Davis. Seems that (in general) the biggest racial divide in this country remains the relationship between “White” Americans, and African-Americans. (And, is related to the “statue” controversy.)
Don forgive my use of “you” in a general sense but try to understand my perspective
“Sometimes the white supremacists are making a big deal out of it. But you are blaming those who remove them for the reactions of the racists.”
If I’m putting the best interest of someone first then I’m going to prioritize their safety and well being. I’m going to look to the safest and least stressful way possible to do what needs to be done… so to take down statues knowing that at this point in time some “racists” might react violently toward the people I’m helping would not be my first choice.
id consider other ways of going about this to avoid putting innocent people in harms way. And if I’m thinking about uniting communities struggling with division; I’m going to think of ways to bring them together without heightening their tensions.
to remove these statues and throw hands up in the air and say “well it’s not OUR fault the racists killed these people in a riot. Let’s plan a vigil with friends in OUR neighborhood to pay homage to the dead mom and her surviving kids. This is all Trumps fault, SEE.”
It doesn’t LOOK like the vulnerable people are topping the list of priorities among those most passionately supporting this. There are many better ways to go about treating the division and tensions in the South. I don’t believe for a second that all these uber-educated politicians could think of no better way.
Claire
Everything was premeditated and well planned by these who make decision to remove the statue and for permits to protest the city council’s decision . Communists don’t value human lives , heritage and history . History is repeating itself for me in USA . Sad .
So where does all this erasing of history end? The Vietnam war wasn’t very popular, should Vietnam war memorials and/or soldier statues be removed or destroyed? How about books, many books offend people. Should they be burned? Who’s idealogue should determine what parts of history gets removed? Just leftist ideals or do conservatives get a say too?
Look at the Miseast where ISIS has been blowing up ancient monuments. I’ll bet they feel justified too.
To all of you that are for erasing history, which faces should be removed?
https://d371bzke8qmfhi.cloudfront.net/styles/explore_hero/s3/images/navigation/mountrushmore_1.jpg?itok=4-xvtCQs
All the ones that committed treason against the United States of America.
I’m not sure to whom this question is addressed, since I’m not aware of anyone who is for erasing history. I do know of many who are in favor of whitewashing history, however, by failing to acknowledge that the Civil War was waged by political and military leaders who committed treason to preserve the institution of slavery. I do know that these metal monuments that predominately white southerners (and white supremacists) are so passionate about preserving were largely erected long after the Civil War as a way to show resistance to racial equality for blacks.
Arguments comparing those who do not believe public spaces and public funds should be devoted to honoring those who took up arms in defense of racist ideology to ISIS are simplistic and insensitive. They are convenient ways of failing to confront the origins of these anachronistic symbols of a part of our history that must be remembered for what it was, not erased.
or, the figures on the other side if the ridge…
http://pdxretro.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/back-of-mount-rushmore.png
The graphic shown is not that of the link I posted… what gives?
Think someone else posted the graphic… I don’t know how to post graphics!
Don: “All the ones that committed treason against the United States of America.”
Just for the sake of argument, what about those who committed treason against England? Or, personally “owned” slaves?
Full article here.
So, let’s be clear about which history people are attempting to preserve. It’s a history of white supremacy, not a history of the Confederacy or those who fought in the Civil War.
Maybe even more to the point is something that a friend of mine wrote on Facebook:
Your friend on Facebook is correct, as far as she goes: it is NOT about the statues, not as far as the alt-left is concerned. The alt-left is like the Taliban: it wants to destroy history, in this case American history. and replace it with its own version, as it has done to a large extent in our high schools and colleges.
As for “moral calculus”, let’s examine your friend’s remark in a local context: where is the “moral calculus” in giving the imam at the Davis Islamic Center and his board a “pass” for calling for the annihilation of the Jews, as Rabbi Cassleman, Robb Davis, and some leftist Christian clergy did last week?
There is no such thing as an “alt-left.”
You completely ignored, and thus apparently completly missed, the point that my (male) friend was making. If you think are out there for the statues, and you find yourself on the side of the Nazis, it’s time to dissociate and get the hell out of there. And if you don’t, there is something seriously (morally) wrong with you.
The local context has no relevance for my friend’s remarks because my friend does not live in Davis, or even California. Actually, it’s completely irrelevant period, since regardless of what one thinks about the imam, it is still wrong to march with the Nazis. But, for the record, I completely condemn the imam’s remarks and think that he should be forced to resign or removed from his position. Sorry to burst your stereotype of the non-existent “alt-left.”
More to the point, the ‘protest’ had little to do with the statue, either… like an unglazed porceline chip placed in a beaker of solution to make it boil faster (via nucleation), the Nazi/KKK/White supremacists/alt-right folk seized on the issue as an excuse to provoke a confrontation… a violent one.
Almost all the counter-protesters were there to protest the protest… and their (‘alt-right’) vomitous spew… again, nothing directly to do with the statue… some of those (few, but ‘enough’), were also looking to “rumble”, violently.
Roberta: Exactly – the monuments were put up as a reminder to blacks that they may be free, but they were still second class citizens. This whole historical argument is weird anyway, who puts up monuments to the losing side of wars/ history
Especially when that losing side was acting immorally.
“It doesn’t LOOK like the vulnerable people are topping the list of priorities among those most passionately supporting this.”
Perhaps you might feel differently about this if you had been able to attend the vigil in Central Park last night. Amongst the crowd of probably several hundred people there was a broad range from our community. There was a wide economic range, from the very privileged such as myself, to people whom I know to be at a very modest level of income. There were people of all faiths present, known to me personally, and by their choice of clothing. There were people of all colors, from my very white background, to folks I know identify as Hispanic, to blacks, to say nothing of those who are Asian, and a fair number of people that I would not have been able to identify by skin / hair color. So with regard to POC, religious minorities, LGBTQ ( yes I do know, I’m a gynecologist) generally regarded as at risk or vulnerable populations, they were well represented.
I think that perhaps from your comments, you are under the erroneous impression that this was just a bunch of rich liberals out to take out their anger or disappointment about the results of the election. Well, I am certainly disappointed. But let me be clear. I do not feel that we have to do anything at all to “make 45 look bad”. He does that every single day through his own words and actions. My sole goal is to not remain silent while this man destroys our environment, our health care, suppresses the ability of the vulnerable to vote, and manages his own stated goal of tearing apart out democratic institutions in order to enable a theocratic dictatorship. I have no secondary goal. I do not pretend to be an important voice, but I will not remain silent.
That’s the discourse we get from those who oppose removing symbols of racism and the Confederacy.
And from those who rely on name-calling and right wing buzz words in place of rational discourse or original thoughts.
“NIMBY”, as well. (Sometimes also interchanged with a couple of the phrases Don posted.)
I’m fondly remembering one commenter on the Vanguard, who seemed to use such terms quite often (and yet didn’t direct those phrases to anyone personally, very often). Even though I didn’t agree much with his views, the Vanguard isn’t the same without him.
Don Shor, why did you go to the trouble of cherrypicking a few words from commenter’s posts who have a different opinion than you?
In my opinion “You are being ridiculous and are trivializing the issue. I wonder why.”
My point, obviously, was to illustrate the juvenile name-calling that the president’s apologists are engaging in here.
Just as anyone can also go through the comments of the Trump haters posts and pick out the same type of juvenile name-calling.
I prefer to not waste my time.
Are you sure that’s the reason they were put up in the first place?
(I think it’s best to relocate them somewhere else, regardless. I had no idea that a whole group of “defenders” of the monuments would arise, though.) To me, I can’t help but associate these monuments with a “defense” of slavery, regardless of the individual or cause it’s supposedly honoring.
Yes
Well, if that’s true – then yes – all the more reason to relocate them. (I thought it might have something to do with the “lost cause” view of the war. You know – “honor” in the face of overwhelming odds.)
Still wondering exactly how the whole thing got stirred up, with these supremacist groups. Seems like it came out of nowhere. (Frankly, I didn’t even know they existed to that degree.)
There was a good article in the Atlantic this week on their foundation.
This has been building for awhile. Started with the flag removal last year and the white supremacist groups are feeling empowered right now, although this whole things seems to have backfired on them.
Unfortunately, I’m not sure that they feel that way. Fortunately, I strongly suspect that they’ll remain in the minority (and will diminish again, at some point). This country is not mid-century Germany, and never will be. In fact, I’m wondering if this is the last gasp, for this particular point of view. (Not of racism, intolerance, and hatred in general, though.)
And how do you know that? Because you read it on some left wing website? Have you ever been to Gettysburg? I have, took a horse ride tour with my family through the battlefields with guides and headphones. It was a fantastic historical excursion rich with facts and stories of the battle. Yes there were monuments, statues and museums everywhere and it had nothing to do with reminding blacks that they were second class citizens (as David says). It was an educating historical experience about the great battle that took place there.
We have many statues and monuments in America of the Vietnam War, I’m pretty sure we lost that one.
How about American Indian war statues and monuments, I think it’s fair to say the Indians lost that war too.
Well, this statue looks familiar… guess it should go next…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_of_the_Gettysburg_Battlefield#/media/File:Virgnia_Monument_Crop.jpg
Then we could start on these…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_of_the_Gettysburg_Battlefield#Confederate_monuments
In Pennsylvania, a free state, at the site of one of the few battles the Army of Northern Virginia lost.
Might take awhile, though…
I am waiting for even one Muslim resident of Davis to stand up and say “not in my name”, “don’t use my religion to preach genocide of others” , and “Imam Shahin has to go”.
Has a single member of ICD resigned due to what their “spiritual” leader had called upon them to do in the name of Allah? Has Mr Shahin delivered a complete retraction to his congregants, telling them all to ignore his earlier call to slaughter the Jews “down to the very last one”.
What has the ICD’s board of directors done?
Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Deafening silence.
Hamza said his comments were appalling and unacceptable.
I repeat my questions.
Has any member of ICD called for Shahin to step down?
Has any member of that house of worship resigned in disgust?
Has Shahin delivered a corrective sermon to his worshippers, saying “ok, just kidding, don’t really go out and slaughter all Jews”. ?
Has Shahin retracted his retrograde sermon telling his worshippers not to accept the US Constitution or democracy because they are both idols like “figs”?
Has Shahin denounced the guest “scholar” Sheikh Al Nabulsi that preached at ICD that homosexuals should be put to death?
Is anyone out there just a tad bit creeped out about what is being taught there?
Remembet Mein Kampf and Mao’s Little Red Book? Words have serious consequences. It’s called murder.
I’ve been debating whether or not to post this, but here goes. What, exactly, should we do about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Lee_(car)#/media/File:General_lee.jpg
(My apologies in advance.) 🙂
Wow, some people on this thread really like to pick words out of context to validate whatever message they want to hear
as a BLACK WOMAN, whose ancestors were slaves in Alexandria Louisiana among other places – I am not a confederacy sympathizer
I would, however, like to see racism HEALED in this country and it’s not going to happen by instigating a civil war
I resent the sentiments of black Americans being manipulated and exploited for personal gain – which is what a lot of disingenuous democratic leaders do.
I think that if there are 10 ways to resolve a problem, it makes sense to choose the one that is least dangerous and confrontational UNLESS in your deepest darkest truth you believe you’re wagering with the lives of people that don’t really matter so much to you.
I have black family in riot prone neighborhoods of Baltimore- I don’t want them hurt over some symbolism that means less to them than some “liberals” enjoy believing as it suits their present agenda.
As a black woman I also know that slavery and Jim Crow is still relevent in the present condition of black people… and most white “bigots”. A FULL education on this is critical to healing and preventing repetition. I also believe in understanding perceived “villains” because most the time they have a story too. If we can understand that, and get over our resentment of the symptoms of their disease, they too can be healed.
I value progress above gloating in the opportunity to feel “right”. This is what I feel is not happening right now among a lot of “liberals.”
i hate the terms liberals and conservatives because there’s mostly truths and non-truths and creating parties that define themselves by expressed intention makes it easy to manipulate truths a lot…. and still convince yourself (or others) that you’re doing the right thing.
And I’m sorry if I generalized all “liberals” to be rich and disingenuous. I believe in all “parties” there are an equal number of good people trying to do the right thing. I was only wanting to illustrate that vigils in the park are sweet but aren’t going by to prevent more chaos and deaths nor bring anyone back to life. To me, true care of the people most vulnerable in this situation would involve finding a better way to achieve the expressed goal. And erasing history (which is so very needed) and adding to racial tensions is NOT the best way to do it.
Howard, is this the pic you wanted to post?
http://www.blackhillsbadlands.com/sites/default/files/styles/hero_image/public/photos/parks-monuments/crazy-horse2.jpg?itok=seTSV9UF×tamp=1429220105
Empathy is vital to peacefully achieving anything. I find that many “liberals” tend to look at racial causes through their own paradigms… many of you have the luxury of valuing sentimental “offenses” because you have no ancestors who have been enslaved/lynched. Your kids are in good schools, you own your homes, and education is a given.
These are not the prevailing conditions of most black people immediately impacted by the controversial removal of these statues. If asked on a ballot if they want them taken down, they’re obliged to say yes. But if asked about any number of issues being exponentially more urgent and important to them; I’m sure symbols bottom their lists… and I also think the vast majority of black Americans desire MORE education on slavery and an acknowledgement of its relevance today. Unfortunately their emotions are presently too hyped up for them to see how removing these monuments goes against that.
I also think “liberals” view “right-wing conservatives” or “bigots” through their paradigm as well. Many of the most influential among “you” have traveled the world, served in Peace Corps or some other global humanitarian cause, and were raised in the northeast or Pacific Northwest… Some of you are Jewish.
Youre holding these “bigots” (a terribly overused word) to a standard that relates to your understanding of a world that’s very different than theirs. This is unfair and unrealistic.
Like it or not American history created the “bigot” just as much as it created the poor black criminal. Both have been manipulated into being pitted against each other since the beginning of slavery.
You cannot acknowledge the latter without the former. You cannot truly improve the condition of either one without understanding and improving the condition of the other. They are connected.
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/monuments-of-oppression.jpg
This must be taken down too:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02157/Colosseum_2157958k.jpg
You are being ridiculous and are trivializing the issue. I wonder why.
Just showing how ridiculous and how far the taking down of historical monuments can go. Where does it end? I say it’s you who is trivilizing the issue. I wonder why?
Both of these pics represent oppressive civilizations with monuments that were built by slaves.
Look up logical fallacies. Slippery slope is one of the top ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
You keep calling them historical monuments as though they serve some historic purpose as oppose to the purpose for which they were actually designed for.
Keith is 100% right about all the monuments of slaves. Let’s start demolishing antebellum mansions too while we are at it.
Slaves built the White House. It should come down.
Claire: he’s not right and frankly neither are you. The White House may have by slave labor, but it is not a monument to slavery. There is a big difference. The statues of the Confederacy were specifically enacted as monuments that celebrated the white supremacy and served as a reminder to blacks they were not equal.
David – i think it would have been much more fruitful to make sure the youth were fully educated on the background of these monuments before considering removing them. It also would have been more progressive to have completed them in an open display of the full history. This would inspire everything from understanding, to forgiveness, and healing in both sides…
and would have been unlikely to provoke greater racial tensions to such an extent as these removals have.
And because this is so obvious; I’m having a hard time believing that there was no ulterior motive to doing things this way. And that angers me because the vulnerable people ; blacks and poor people are being used just as they were during slavery.
Someone commented on one of your related posts that “fear is not a factor” for him on this one but he’s not sending his children to school next week in the racially tense cities where the removals have began.
Easy to gamble with someone else’s safety. Last nights vigil sadly probably won’t be the last. And it’s absurd for anyone to dismiss it since the blames not directly on their shoulders. If a disaster can be predicted, it should be avoided. ESPECIALLY when there are safer and altogether better mmore effective ways to achieve the (expressed) desired ends…
unless people are lying to themselves about what their greatest motivation is
I don’t agree. The statues are all coming down. They should have come down a long time ago. The bigots lost this week and lost badly. The specter of KKK and neo-Nazis marching in Charlottesville actually ended the debate for most reasonable people and now these statues are being quietly taken down.
What do people think of the pyramid of the Sun in Mexico?
To date indigenous people there still face a lot of mistreatment and discrimination
Some of them may feel uncomfortable with that thing looming over their heads ??♀️
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/charlottesville-protest-confederate-statue-taken-down-what-to-do-a7892856.html
This is great; and even better if similar artistic and historically relevent displays can be created where they presently stand so that local children have easy access to them.
Here’s a speech by the New Orleans Mayor on why they took down the statues, I suggest you read it as it provides the historic context for why the statues were enacted in the first place: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/opinion/mitch-landrieus-speech-transcript.html?_r=0
And a real caveat of this terrible move is that if we don’t back out smoothly with a more considerate solution that saves face without now appearing cowardly; we will nurture the confidence of the few powerful and dangerous bigots who’re now strengthened by this provocation of fence riders or passive “bigots” as well as whatever wild behavior ensues when distressed black communities react to whatever might be on its way to them…
The 2 main groups impacted by this have very unique”toughness” of character and malleable simplicity. And it does relate to their/our history.
A lot of people are underestimating how their pride works, how bold they can be when provoked, how flexible, forgiving, and resilient they can be when well informed and included.
This is the wrong way to do things. I don’t expect to win an argument here, but I’m not defending the confederacy because I’m a fan of slavery. That’s a ridiculous suggestion.
let’s jjust see what happens. I hope everything works out peacefully and these monuments are at least preserved elsewhere. And I hope our new president manages to do better than a lot of people expect him to do… not because I like HIM; but because I want America to be well.
For this country to have created the bigot as it has and then believe you can punish or shame him into changing is equally misguided as right-wingers who believe you can shame and bully a generationally impoverished black man into pulling himself up the the bootstraps.
2 sides of the same ignorance.
This isn’t about that in my view – this is about getting decent people to step up and that’s what happened this week.
Sonia K has a relevant perspective.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/opinions/holocaust-survivor-trump-charlottesville-sonia-k-opinion/index.html
Well for what matters most – people – I do hope that you are right. Monuments can be moved and books and theater can mostly replace whatever is lost is their destruction…
but if you’re wrong (and I do hope not); just remember most the deep pockets that support these “bigots” believe in the right to bare arms and to fight. Whereas most the deep pockets supporting the people most vulnerable and innocent but to whom all blame will be assigned – the deep pockets behind them are anti-guns and believe in social media protests and community vigils. ?
And they all have kids.
Thats my worry.
*bear ?
“I’m not defending the confederacy because I’m a fan of slavery. That’s a ridiculous suggestion.”
That would be a ridiculous suggestion. We can all see from your writings your respect for all human beings. However, it would be equally ridiculous to suggest that these white supremacists are not fans of slavery or at least promoting a systemically inferior position for POC in our society, if not deporting all POC to attain a white isolationist state. This sentiment can be heard in the interviews of the white supremacists so it is not just a liberal talking point, it is in their own words.
I truly appreciate your clarification that you do not contend that all liberals have the same motivation or same perspective. I feel the Mayor of New Orleans speech exemplifies my feelings on this issue. There is a distinct difference between acknowledging the entirely of our history in context, and glorifying only selected portions of it.
With regard to the value of vigils, I believe that they have an educational purpose as well as a demonstrative one. When I hear about a planned vigil, it prompts me to read and learn more about the issues at had. Another poster expressed this when stating he had been unaware of the scope of the white nationalist movement. I have an advantage. I am now retired and so have more time to read in depth on current issues. But for those who are working and raising families, a peaceful vigil can be one means of educating oneself and ones children on issues both national and local.
By the way. Hope you and the children are doing well.
Well taken, thank you Tia . I could be better read on this for sure. Most my views are based on my understanding of human nature and people.
Hopefully you and David are right and peace ensues smoothly… I do think the groundwork should have at least come first.
My kids are great. I’ve been very fortunate in their regard. But I can tell you I’ve learned a lot. You have no idea. Things are really not what they appear to be in a lot of respects. You’d be surprised how respected advocates of vulnerable people do the unimaginable. ?
But there’s no perfect world. We all do our best. (Sorry for off topic David/Don)
Hugs Tia
Claire Benoit
“We need to stop referring to what happened in Charlottesville as a clash between the “alt-left” and the “alt-right.” The majority of the counterprotesters were concerned residents of Charlottesville, not a fringe political group. The so-called “alt-right,” or the white nationalists, have no place in America, and they don’t deserve a place on our political spectrum.
There is no space at the political table for them. There is no common ground, and there is no compromise. America has fought and won two wars against fascism and white supremacy already. White nationalists are the KKK rebranded, and they lost their right to free speech the minute they tried to use it to intimidate and incite violence. Which, by the way, was back in 1865. So, stop giving them a voice.”
From a commentary by Heather Heyer’s cousin.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/opinions/heather-heyer-cousin-racism-has-no-place-in-america/index.html