Are the Gang Experts Conflating Rap and Hip Hop Culture with Being a Gang Member? Questioning of Expert Witnesses in Gang Injunction Case
First, Joe Villanueva took the stand as an expert. Detective Villanueva currently works on the City of Fairfield gang unit, but up until the end of 2007 headed the Yolo County Gang Unit.
One of the big questions is the nature of expert testimony. Expert witnesses are allowed to render opinions. In this case, both experts have rendered opinions about whether an individual is or is not a gang member. Their expertise is based both on formal training and street experience, but at the same time we have seen some of the limits of their knowledge and, as importantly, the inability to put the information gathered on the streets into proper context.
This latter problem is particularly true for Sgt. Winger, as we have seen this week under direct examination from Deputy DA Jay Linden.
We have already previously discussed Sgt. Winger’s testimony on the Ornelas case which is not consistent with the facts that were presented at trial. But there are a few other key points that need to be raised about the nature of Sgt. Winger’s expert testimony.
Much of this week, Sgt. Winger has gone through name by name, explaining why each individual listed is a gang member. His assessment is based on a standard of the totality of the circumstances, which is an interesting standard in that it would appear to give more objective consideration to the determination of gang status than a simple on-the-street determination that many jurisdictions use.
Indeed, West Sacramento might appear to have a more rigorous standard as the determination of validation goes up the chain of command within the department for approval, but it still falls well short of any proceeding that might take place in the court room. As we will see shortly, this standard is often based on misreading evidence, and can fall woefully short.
Two points that Sgt. Winger made stand out. First, at one point, he was asked to read from “documents” found on the scene at the home of one purported gang member, Manuel Guzman. He read from this “document” and it became very clear that Sgt. Winger was reading from rap lyrics.
Taken out of context this would be very damning, as it made reference to killing and the gang life, with specific references to West Sacramento, Broderick and the like.
The problem, as one of the defense attorneys objected, is that this appears to be gangster rap lyrics. As such, the lyrics are not shocking but rather quite typical of a genre of music that regularly makes reference to, and even glorifies, the gang life and culture.
Does that make Mr. Guzman a gang member? Only if you believe that all rap stars are gang members. And the “totality of the circumstances” argument could fall well short here, as certainly many established and aspiring rap stars have lyrics like these and items in their home that could be interpreted as gang “indicia.” More on that shortly.
The problem is that you have middle-aged individuals, most of them white, trying to make sense out of a culture that they have never been a part of and likely do not understand. Lacking that understanding, one can misinterpret one’s clues.
And yet this is an expert witness, but it seems possible that he has never listened to rap music in his life. Certainly , he has little understanding of a popular Hip-Hop culture and subculture that have come to glorify the “gangsta” lifestyle, and have incorporated and even co-opted gang symbols and slogans.
This point comes out again with Carlos Guzman, who purportedly has a tatto across his chest with the writing, “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop.”
According to the expert Sgt. Winger, that is a gang saying pertaining specifically to the Norteno gang, which stands for can’t stop the gang life and won’t stop the gang life.
Sounds convincing right? Now google the term and you find out something very interesting. First of all, no reference to gangs in the first several pages. Instead you find a number of songs by the name, including one by Lindsey Lohan.
We find a New York Daily News story from May 9, 2010 that reports that “New Lindsay Lohan song, ‘Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop,’ leaked online.” We can even watch her video .
We also know that title is an influential book on the Hip Hop industry by Jeff Chang .
So is this a gang slogan, or just a pop culture reference? Does Sgt. Winger even know? This gets to the very point, he may know a bit about gang members, but he seems to lack a broader perspective that would enable him to perhaps properly identify what he is seeing and put it into context.
These may seem like small details, but they are very dangerous, potentially, as we saw on Frontline this week in their feature on Cameron Todd Willingham. He was convicted of setting an arson fire that killed his three children in Texas, was executed, and new forensic evidence demonstrates that the fire was not arson.
What we see, in part, is a combination of police and investigators misreading the clues and the totality of the evidence. Investigators argued that Mr. Willingham was a satan worshiper and suggested that the burn patterns in the children’s room showed a pentagram. They also found posters that depicted satanic images.
However, later forensic investigators dispute much of that evidence. The pentagram that the investigators thought they saw was actually created by the windows and door in the room and the ventilation patterns. Meanwhile, the posters that were supposedly satanic images were actually posters from the band, Iron Maiden, a heavy metal band that Mr. Willingham was a fan of.
Iron Maiden does in fact use such images, but they were a popular band in the 1980s and early 1990s for heavy metal fans, most of whom were not Satan worshipers. In short, the conclusions that the police investigators reached were flawed, despite looking at the totality of the evidence.
Rap music may be popular among gang members, but it is also popular among non-gang members. Rap lyrics often depict fictionalized accounts that glorify the gang life. Popular rap musicians may rap about killing people, but that does not mean that they have killed people or even desire to kill people.
Unfortunately, we have a group of people who probably have little exposure to or understanding of such culture, and who are in charge of this case. They may know the law, but the key question that the Judge in this case has to look at is the facts of this case, and that is based not just on the law but also the evidence, and it is contingent upon her ability to weigh that evidence.
When you have a gang expert who may lack the perspective to place evidence into proper perspective, that creates a problem.
Unlike Sgt. Winger, Joe Villanueva, at least, is somewhat steeped in the culture. He testified that he had grown up in the Salinas Valley, in an area with many Norteno gang members. Detective Villanueva testified that he learned about Hispanic Gangs when growing up, about the general structure of the Norteno Gang, and he knew many during his formative years.
But as Detective Villanueva testified, we also discovered that there were limits to his knowledge. For instance, he does not appear to understand gang laws. He did not understand the difference between 186.22(a) and 186.22(b)(1), believing that both were gang enhancements.
In fact, 186.22(a) is not an enhancement, but the stand-alone crime. The statute reads, “Any person who actively participates in any criminal street gang with knowledge that its members engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal gang activity, and who willfully promotes, furthers, or assists in any felonious criminal conduct by members of that gang, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years.”
Whereas in 186.22(b)(1), “Any person who is convicted of a felony committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with any criminal street gang, with the specific intent to promote, further, or assist in any criminal conduct by gang members, shall, upon conviction of that felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony of which he or she has been convicted…”
186.22(b)(1) thus requires that the individual commit a felony “for the benefit of” or “at the direction of” a criminal street gang, and imposes an additional sentence, over and above the sentence for the crime.
While Detective Villanueva is not a lawyer, as a gang expert, he should at least know the difference in the sections of the law.
This is not the only problem with Det. Villanueva’s testimony. Throughout his testimony, Det. Villanueva has stated that he is an expert based on his contacts with gang members, rival gang members, contact with the community, courses he has taken for his Masters, and training he has received as a police officer and gang detective.
However, his understanding of the Norteno gang and Nuestra Familia has some critical holes in it. For instance, defense attorney David Dratman asked him what the letters in the word, “Norte” represent. Det. Villanueva apparently did not understand the question, responding vaguely that the word means north in context with the gang.
Mr. Dratman asked if Det. Villanueva had ever heard the meaning of the letters as, “Northern Organized Raza Towards Equality?”
Det. Villanueva, the gang expert responded, “I have never heard that before.”
Small point? Perhaps. But the broader point here is the criteria for expertise is quite limited and subjective. During trials, a psychiatrist or other professional would have to furnish professional degrees, which certify a proficiency of knowledge. However, while gang experts’ testimonies are given similar weight, there is no certification of knowledge, there is little quality control.
The expert witness, here, stipulates to having taken a couple hundred hours of training in a specialized field, and the rest of the expertise is simply knowledge accumulated on the ground. There is nothing wrong with experience, but experience also has its limits and it prevents people, perhaps, from gaining perspective that is needed to actually analyze what it is that they have witnessed. And yet, they are being called up to do exactly that – analyze and offer opinions that supposedly provide the court testimony with greater weight than that from the average witness.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
[quote]Mr. Dratman asked if Det. Villanueva had ever heard the meaning of the letters as, “Northern Organized Raza Towards Equality?”
Det. Villanueva, the gang expert responded, “I have never heard that before.”
[/quote]
Are you saying that a group of street gang punks built the term Norteno from what appears to be a very ‘anglo’ acronym? And that the officer should know whether that was true or not? It sounds like the attorney did not assert so… I think she was using a ‘jedi mind trick’… to her credit, as you quote the detective, it seemed to ‘work’ in that he as prompted to say what he did, helping to undermine his credibility.
Kinda like the question, “Did you stop beating your wife, and please answer yes or no”.
“Are you saying that a group of street gang punks built the term Norteno from what appears to be a very ‘anglo’ acronym?”
No but I suspect much they didn’t invent the Huelga Bird but rather incorporated it from the United Farm Worker’s Movement, they also co-opted the slogan “Norte”
“And that the officer should know whether that was true or not?”
It’s just like Officer Duggins failing to understand the roots of the Norteno’s were the rural farmers who were looked down upon by the more urban Mexican Mafia/ Sureno gang. It’s understanding where these symbols come from that helps to place everything in perspective, but also to understand that these symbols are not just gang symbols, they came from somewhere and they have other uses. I know a lot of people with Huelga Bird tattoos and not one of them are Norteno Gang Members.
OK… are you saying that in order for the officer to remain “credible”, he needed to respond something like “that’s BS, that’s not where the term Norte (Norteno) comes from”, openly refuting her in open court after an “off the wall” question?
BTW, I agree with your notations re: symbols… I well remember the initial UFW struggles and it was one of the VERY few unions I ever had respect for. I’d be of the opinion that a tattoo copying the UFW logo would tell me “union supporter”, not ‘gang member’.
For me this is not about credibility, it is rather about misinterpretation of the totality of the circumstances, and I’m trying to show how that could occur because the officer lacks proper context to place certain symbols.
k… you never said “credibility”… I am still of the opinion that the attorney was thinking that… you did raise concerns about his testimony, in regard to the question that was asked… [quote]Small point? Perhaps. But the broader point here is the criteria for expertise is quite limited and subjective. [/quote] You’re right… there is no reason I should have assumed that you were questioning his credibility… my ‘bad’… it is noteworthy (IMHO) that you have not addressed whether the question asked of him was appropriate/fair or not… “certain symbols”?… at the end of the day, do we have the right person on trial who has committed a crime?
First you need to realize that most of this so called “Gang Training” is conducted by other cops and law enforcement, so what is being taught and learned is the same thing from the same people with the same goals and beliefs. Lots of people taught the world was flat and most believed it for a long time. Does that mean those that taught it or learned were dumb or lacked credibility, at the time no, but now the answer would be yes. Not sure of Gang members teaching classes about there gangs.
Then there is the misinformation issues, many criminal and lawyers do this all the time, they put out false or incorrect info to mislead, gangs do to confuse the cops, lawyers do it to confuse the jury or court. So depending on who you ask will dictate what you told, if it is accurate depends on many other factors. A lot of “gang intel” comes from gang members cutting deals, snitching, getting less time or pleas. So how creditable is that info? Much like torture will get confessions but they won’t necessarily be accurate. Again what does the person have to gain or lose should be a factor in determining credibility.
Gang cops get to specaial training, special jobs, benefits, grant monies, status, once they get “expert” status or label they get to teach and get paid extra, so do they have motivation or outside influences that affects their beliefs?
The DA gets extra money, he gets headlines, he gets to scare the public, he more people, he gets to put on him resume how many gang members he put away and how cleaned up and saved the city, he gets lots of benefits to so call “fight” this dangerous group of mainly kids. Does he have motivation to exaggerate or make the problem seem worse, hell yea.
You put all these motivating factors on any other witness and that witness would be deemed unreliable and bias. Much like a mother that testifies her murdering son was a good kid.
Different standards for the Gov and the common man or kids from a bad neighborhood with no money to fight with.
This point comes out again with Carlos Guzman, who purportedly has a tatto across his chest with the writing, “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop.” According to the expert Sgt. Winger, that is a gang saying pertaining specifically to the Norteno gang, which stands for can’t stop the gang life and won’t stop the gang life.
Sgt.Winger is wrong on this one. I am no gang member and I even know that “Can’t stop, Won’t stop” is from the lyrics of “KRS one” who is known as a hip hop legend in the hip hop world. His lyrics are very strong and deep in the hip hop world and in all of his music if you are a real hip hop fan. Rap and hip hop are two different types of music if anyone really listens to it, as I do. Rap can be heard on local radio stations, and hip hop is called underground music that the mainstream radio stations do not play. For them to make up some ignorant information about what it really stands for is absurd and truly false! The song is based on dirty cops. Listen to the song and its lyric’s. A lot of the tattoos that’s used is from hip hop lyrics. Just like “916” is in reference to a song called “Area codes” by “Nate Dogg” and “Ludacris”. Again, Listen to the lyrics. The same goes for the chinese tattoo that many people use in all “races” that stands for “trust no man” for the woman and “Trust no woman” for the man, it’s meaning is from a relationship point of view. For them (so called gang experts)to “make up” some absolutely ignorant term of what it stands for is so far fetched from the truth. Every year I go to these concerts called “Rock the Bells” in Mountain View, Ca that have about 15 hip hop (not rap,there is a differnce) artist perform in concert. Just like a lot of the writing that I have seen in the Broderick neighborhood that they call graffiti, which is really known as “tagging”. You can go online and look up tagging, as it is seen in a lot of hip hop videos which has nothing to do with gang. It’s real meaning can be for skateboarders all the way down to breakdancing. There is a group called “Wu Tang” that performs at “rock the Bells”, and when they come to the stage everybody goes wild and throws up the “W” with their 4 fingers, but this does not mean everyone in attendance is a gang member just because they are throwing up the “W”. A group called Westside Connection also throws up the “W” for west side. The so called gang experts are trying to bring in “fads” that teenagers are into now and have been into many years back, such as baggy clothing, lyrics from music and symbols from clothing as gang evidence. It is just absurd! They (so called gang experts) need to stop tring to win at any cost, and in the mean time they are under oath and not telling the true meanings of their evidence. They are making it up as they go along. Shame on you Reisig to hire some gang experts who are just not that!
dmg: “However, his understanding of the Norteno gang and Nuestra Familia has some critical holes in it. For instance, defense attorney David Dratman asked him what the letters in the word, “Norte” represent. Det. Villanueva apparently did not understand the question, responding vaguely that the word means north in context with the gang.
Mr. Dratman asked if Det. Villanueva had ever heard the meaning of the letters as, “Northern Organized Raza Towards Equality?”
Det. Villanueva, the gang expert responded, “I have never heard that before.”
Small point? Perhaps. But the broader point here is the criteria for expertise is quite limited and subjective. During trials, a psychiatrist or other professional would have to furnish professional degrees, which certify a proficiency of knowledge. However, while gang experts’ testimonies are given similar weight, there is no certification of knowledge, there is little quality control.”
You seem to be assuming the detective was wrong and the defense had the correct interpretation of what the word “norte” means in the gang context.
I’m not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you trying to say Det. Villanueva is not a qualified gang expert, and should not have been allowed to testify? An expert witness does not necessarily have to have specialized degrees to be an expert witness, just some more knowledge about the subject than the average bear that would assist the jury to better understand the issue in question. The judge certainly seemed to think the detective was qualified to be a gang expert.
valerie: “This point comes out again with Carlos Guzman, who purportedly has a tatto across his chest with the writing, “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop.” According to the expert Sgt. Winger, that is a gang saying pertaining specifically to the Norteno gang, which stands for can’t stop the gang life and won’t stop the gang life.”
How do you know what Carlos Guzman meant when he put the tattoo on his chest? I’m not trying to be sarcastic, but asking a very important question. You are assuming the meaning was harmless; the police are assuming it is a gang reference. The only one who really knows is Guzman. But if you put all the evidence together IN ITS TOTALITY, does it appear Guzman meant it to be a gang reference? That is the real issue here, and one the judge will decide. The judge has already made it pretty clear she wants more than just the police’s word for it that there is a gang problem in West Sac.
To Valerie: I’ve made this point in another post. I think it bears repeating:
I think you may be underestimating the judge here. She clearly signaled that putting police officers on the stand is not enough. She wants to see some residents who have actually been effected by gang violence. So the prosecution can bring in officer testimony all day long, but if they don’t produce what the judge asked for, it is not as likely they will make their case stick. Often the judge will sit without expression, and not signal how they feel one way or the other. So if you are sitting and observing the trial, it may be frustrating if you think things are one-sided, or unfair. But the judge is usually taking it all in, and assessing things all along. It will be very interesting to see how the judge comes out on this one…
[quote]”This point comes out again with Carlos Guzman, who purportedly has a tatto across his chest with the writing, “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop.” According to the expert Sgt. Winger, that is a gang saying pertaining specifically to the Norteno gang, which stands for can’t stop the gang life and won’t stop the gang life. Sounds convincing right? [u]Now google the term and you find out something very interesting.[/u] First of all, no reference to gangs in the first several pages. Instead you find a number of songs by the name, including one by Lindsey Lohan….So is this a gang slogan, or just a pop culture reference?”[/quote] So I do as you instruct and, indeed, find out something very interesting.
As usual, when I’m staring at more than 100,000 non-applicable results, I refine my search: [quote]”can’t stop, won’t stop”+”gang slogan”[/quote] Whew, down to a more manageable trio of results!
#1. Verrry interesting. “Rap Star or Gang Member?” The first Google search result turns out to be this very blog article. Is [u]The Vanguard[/u] really the Twilight Zone or what?
#2. A 1999 “Investigative Journalist Transcript” link. “Kody Scott wanted to call the book ‘Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop’, a gang slogan he had tattooed on his chest. But his publisher had other ideas. “They came up with Monster, not me,” Scott said. (Wonder if Lindsay sports the same sentiments?)
#3. A pdf copy of the 128-page New York Police Dept. “Gang Manual” that identifies various gang signs, customs, tattoos, graffiti, colors, etc. To the point, it includes this required “lesson”: “What’s poppin’: Six crackin’, 5 droppin’, can’t stop, won’t stop… Blood killer till my casket droppin’…from the great blue sky.”
Claiming that “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop” tattooed one’s chest must just be honoring Lindsay Lohan’s vocal abilities is a little like calling “Die Fahne hoch” simply a show tune. Gangs and the music were conflated–nay, more like joined at the hip–long before this gang injunction trial.
“[quote]Either in an effort to connect with their idols or in a furthering need to emulate what they believe is Hip-Hop, youth gangs have always been a part of the Hip-Hop culture. Even with the Zulu Nation’s intention to clean up the image of Hip-Hop, the dark side seems to be what attracts the criminal element.” [u]from “Youth Gangs – The Hip-Hop Connection”[/u][/quote]
Live by the Google, die by the Google.
E Musser,
re: ‘I think you may be underestimating the judge here. She clearly signaled that putting police officers on the stand is not enough. She wants to see some residents who have actually been effected by gang violence.’
Seems like a good idea; but how does one get around the intimidation factor, if a gang threat does in fact exist (the old catch-22)?
Is there a way to testify anonymously? (I realize this can generate other problems of credibility)
“You seem to be assuming the detective was wrong and the defense had the correct interpretation of what the word “norte” means in the gang context.”
I looked it up to fact to check.
Just Sayin’: I understand that, but the point is that Can’t Stop Won’t Stop gang references were drown out by the non-gang pop cultural references – which means that someone wearing that slogan is not necessarily a gang member. THen you have to go to what Sgt. Winger and others call “totality of the circumstances” which can be in error.
Elaine: “How do you know what Carlos Guzman meant when he put the tattoo on his chest?”
That’s the point to all of this. We don’t know and we can’t know. Because we are listening to a biased police expert testify rather than putting Carlos Guzman on the stand and allowing him to explain.
“I think you may be underestimating the judge here.”
I know that was not intended for me, but I want to make a point here. I’m thoroughly impressed by Judge. I know she has pissed off the defense at times, she has also undoubtedly pissed off the prosecution. I will not underestimate her. But this is a case that puts her into an impossible task. I have no doubt that she knows the law. I have a lot of doubts as to whether she can put the cultural cues in proper context.
dmg: “Just Sayin’: I understand that, but the point is that Can’t Stop Won’t Stop gang references were drown out by the non-gang pop cultural references – which means that someone wearing that slogan is not necessarily a gang member. THen you have to go to what Sgt. Winger and others call “totality of the circumstances” which can be in error.”
And Sgt Winger and others could be right…
dmg: “I know that was not intended for me, but I want to make a point here. I’m thoroughly impressed by Judge. I know she has pissed off the defense at times, she has also undoubtedly pissed off the prosecution. I will not underestimate her. But this is a case that puts her into an impossible task. I have no doubt that she knows the law. I have a lot of doubts as to whether she can put the cultural cues in proper context.”
No system is perfect. It is not reasonable to expect “justice” as you view it according to your values. As you are beginning to see, there is “my side”, “your side”, and the truth is “somewhere in the middle”. It is also a constant weighing of differing interests – public safety versus defendant’s rights versus the people’s right to be free. I think people too often see the courtroom and justice as starkly black or white, when in fact there is an awful lot of gray area in between. At this point, I think you have to trust the judge. She has already signaled the prosecution’s case has not met the burden of proof with just officer testimony.
“…the point is that Can’t Stop Won’t Stop gang references were drown out by the non-gang pop cultural references – which means that someone wearing that slogan is not necessarily a gang member.” What I think I found out is that your Google search was flawed by your selection of the search terms, and it signifies nothing about this case. In fact, if one searches using the terms that apply to this situation, as I did, the “experts” are more likely correct that a ‘Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop’ chest tattoo could be one indicator of possible gang involvement.
Google “war” and you get 860,000,000 results, of which many don’t refer to armed conflict. Try “kill” and you end up with 154,000,000 resultsOne even could observe that Googling “tomato” provides 29,700,000 results, with references to pop culture movie reviews, tattoos, firmware and other computer related matters “drowning out” the eating variety.
It seems like a “totality of the circumstances” standard is important in evaluating whether people might be affiliated with a gang so that a single piece of evidence wouldn’t “prove” that one is a member. And noting that this fellow “is not necessarily a gang member” just because he sports the tattoo does not mean that he is not a gang member.
Of course, anything “can be in error”–but, because “it can be” doesn’t provide much weight to the idea that “it is in error.” What standards would you suggest (since most gang members likely wouldn’t claim membership when facing the police or a court)? And, I’ll bet, most aren’t card-carrying or dues-paying members.
Guess I’m just saying that sometimes you stretch a point too far in your efforts to accumulate a totality of the circumstances.
David,
Alternative headline, “Rap Star or Gang-star.” Maybe not.
“First, Joe Villanueva took the stand as an expert. Detective Villanueva currently works on the City of Fairfield gang unit, but up until the end of 2007 headed the Yolo County Gang Unit.
This week, the current head of the gang unit, Sgt. Jason Winger, has taken the stand in the gang injunction case.”
Joe Villanueva headed the Yolo County Gang Task Force? Maybe he was the go-to guy for gang expertise in the WSPD or headed some WSPD unit that focused on criminal street gang activity? Does WSPD have an official gang unit?
DMG, “According to the expert Sgt. Winger, that is a gang saying pertaining specifically to the Norteno gang, which stands for can’t stop the gang life and won’t stop the gang life.”
DMG “Sounds convincing right? Now google the term and you find out something very interesting. First of all, no reference to gangs in the first several pages. Instead you find a number of songs by the name, including one by Lindsey Lohan.”
What does the tattoo or expression mean to Guzman? When did Guzan get that tattoo? Did Sgt. Winger provide anything to support his assertion? Do other “gang members” have that tattoo, “live by” that expression, etc?
“Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop” is also a song by the group Young Gunz, which can be found on the album “Chain Gang Vol. 2” and reached #14 on the US Billboard 200 Chart. The song does describe shooting people (“blast ‘em”) and contains what most would consider violent and offensive lyrics. That said, I don’t know if that makes this song, the group’s members or their image/message to be in any way gang related. They could be model citizens who are not in the least bit violent and have never been involved in gangs for all I know.
The “Can’t Stop Won’t Stop” Youtube video, by the Young Gunz, comes up third on my Google search, before the Lindsay Lohan video and only after the “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop” book’s website. FWIW, the Young Gunz song was released in 2003, roughly two years prior to Chang’s book being published and seven years before Lohan’s song was released.
DMG, “Rap lyrics often depict fictionalized accounts that glorify the gang life.”
Are the fiction and the non-fiction easily discernible?
DMG ”Unfortunately, we have a group of people who probably have little exposure to or understanding of such culture, and who are in charge of this case.”
Maybe I missed something, but how do you know these “gang experts” have had little exposure or understanding of this “culture?” Did Sgt. Winger say he was not aware of the cultural implications of “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop?” Was he asked?
DMG, “During trials, a psychiatrist or other professional would have to furnish professional degrees, which certify a proficiency of knowledge. However, while gang experts’ testimonies are given similar weight, there is no certification of knowledge, there is little quality control.”
So perhaps an associate or bachelor’s degree with an emphasis in criminal street gang activity would help control the quality of their testimony on these matters?
Jimt,
“Seems like a good idea; but how does one get around the intimidation factor, if a gang threat does in fact exist…”
How does law enforcement ever get around intimidation and fear? They have tools. This all assumes that there’s an actual criminal street gang (Broderick Boys) that exists and would intimidate them or already has.
If the prosecution can’t get anyone from the community all because this “gang” is intimidating potential witnesses, would that not be relevant to this case if the DA’s office is able to prove it has occurred?
Valerie,
“A lot of the tattoos that’s used is from hip hop lyrics. Just like ‘916’ is in reference to a song called ‘Area codes’ by ‘Nate Dogg’ and ‘Ludacris’.”
Are you implying that the aforementioned artists are hip-hop artists? That’s ludicrous.
Valerie, “A group called Westside Connection also throws up the “W” for west side.”
Which is not gang related at all? I agree that the “W” thrown up at a Wu Tang concert is not gang related. However, the “W’ associated with Westside Connection and its members is at least loosely rooted in gang life or gang activity, as well as the East Coast/West Coast rap/hip-hop rivalries in the 90’s, which also had gang undertones and subsequent bloodshed.
Whether for imaging or to make money (not that those are mutually exclusive) or for real, the “gangsta” life was a definite component to the group’s lyrics and existence. For real or not, one of their albums’ hit singles is titled “Gangsta Nation” and the group’s sub-genre is “gangsta rap,” FWIW.
Valerie“‘Can’t stop, Won’t stop’ is from the lyrics of ‘KRS one’ who is known as a hip hop legend in the hip hop world. His lyrics are very strong and deep in the hip hop world and in all of his music if you are a real hip hop fan. Rap and hip hop are two different types of music if anyone really listens to it, as I do.”
He’s an “underground” legend of sorts and his lyrics are often poetic, deep and reflective of his life’s hardships. That said, what do you make of this verse from the song “9mm goes bang”…
“But just as they put their pistols down to take a cut
Me jumped out the kitchen, went “”buck! buck! buck!””
They fall down to the floor but one was still alive
So I put my 9 millimeter right between his eyes
Looked at his potnah and both of them were dead
So just before he joined his potnah this is what I said…”
Furthermore, the song you referenced, “Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop” by KRS One, isn’t exactly about puppies and rainbows. It too involves KRS shooting people in the head…
“Pack the ganja BOOM! They break down the door
Pop-pop! T’ree shots, exchanged at close range
Out of three Babylon, me hit one in the brain…”