A friend of mine at lunch this week tells me a story that happened in Yolo County recently. A man is being followed by an undercover police officer. How he knows this, I’m not sure. I’m not sure the guy was undercover, he may just have been off-duty. After awhile, the man has enough and starts snapping pictures out of the side of his car, toward his back.
My friend’s lesson is that being paranoid saved the man. These are questions I often quibble with in my own mind. It is no secret that I do not trust the system and the Vanguard has been formed in part to watch over local government, whether it is the city council, the university, the police, or the courts.
At the same time, I am not one who believes that the system is out to get everyone, though I readily concede that there are many within the system who abuse their authority.
I reach no set conclusion, though I will make a ready point in favor of our nation that gives me hope. You can look at the UC Davis incident within that framework.
On the one hand, you are horrified by the images of John Pike literally bathing the protesters in pepper spray. In fact, not only does he bathe them in the pepper spray but he can be seen shaking the can, trying to get more out. The only thing that stops him from continuing is that he ran out of the pepper spray.
On the other hand, John Pike did not open fire on protesters as we have seen recently in other countries. Moreover, the community was not simply willing to stand by and not gape in horror at the spectacle.
The fact that the police are using less lethal force and the fact that the public is not willing to accept that use of force and looks skeptically at the official explainations is, in fact, something that should encourage us.
Do not get me wrong, there is much to be concerned about here. In 2011 in America, the fact that police still have not figured out how to properly handle protesters is disconcerting. The continued arrogance of UC President Yudof and the UC Regents in giving administrators even more raises amid budget crises and student fee hikes is demoralizing and bewildering at the same time.
The fact that the university is committed to protecting the top, at any cost, continues to be frustrating.
I have talked to a lot of law enforcement people, most are not going to go on the record and it is a no-win scenario, but the most common thing I heard is why try to remove the protesters in the first place. Most protesters put that call on Chancellor Katehi rather than the police on the scene.
They could be right, but most realize that the protesters are looking to provoke the police and got what they wanted. That does not make the actions of the police right and most I have spoken to believe that they violated their own use-of-force policies.
I was reading a column by Ben Boychuk in the Sacramento Bee, where he argued that, while huge mistakes were made, this was not a clear example of police brutality.
He wrote, “I wonder what the police were thinking. Breaking up an unlawful assembly is dangerous business. Even with tensions running high and students outnumbering police, it’s hard to believe Chief Annette Spicuzza’s claim that her well-armed, well-armored officers felt especially endangered. It’s a credit to their professionalism, and the calm of many protest leaders, that the situation didn’t spiral into violence.”
He argued, “Civil disobedience has consequences.”
And he is right, civil disobedience must have consequences to succeed. I recall literature on police response to civil disobedience in the civil rights movement in the south, and the fact that it only worked when the police responded with hoses and dogs.
In fact, Bull Connor was given the order not to respond to protesters in Montgomery, Alabama and it was his own inability to exhibit self-control in turning the hoses and dogs on the protesters that allowed the protest to succeed
In places where the police response was more subdued, the civil rights protests were largely non-stories.
But we do not learn the lessons from history. However, Mr. Boychuk makes a strong argument that this is not police brutality, as unpleasant and painful as pepper spray may be.
“Disobeying a lawful order from police and then being denied kid-glove treatment when the cops remove you isn’t ‘brutality,’ ” he says, as he worries that “police brutality,” like accepting full responsibility, is becoming “another term rapidly draining of any weight.”
We can still find real instances of such brutality in this country.
“You want police brutality? Become acquainted with the facts of the Kelly Thomas case in Fullerton, where two police officers stand accused of murdering a schizophrenic homeless man. Thomas begged for his life as the police shot him four times with a Taser and beat him into a coma. He died 10 days later,” Mr.Boychuk wrote.
Indeed. But he misses the point. What makes this country great is that we are not simply willing to accept the excuse that at least he did not shoot the protesters. The community was not willing to stand by and tolerate this, knowing that at other times, and indeed in other places, the response would have been worse.
We have a lot of problems in this nation that I am not sure we have the ability to solve. I question a lot of things I have seen locally. But sometimes we need to take a step back and at least appreciate progress, small as it may be.
No wonder police are fighting back against handheld and personal cameras. They are dangerous to police.
Transparency and the free press are the most powerful weapons that we have in this nation against the excesses of our government, but they would be useless without the ability of the citizens to become morally outraged at the things they witness, even when those things are not as bad as they have been in the past.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
DG writes:[quote]In fact, not only does he bathe them in the pepper spray but he can be seen shaking the can, trying to get more out.[/quote]
David, David, David: If you read the product instructions or ever had any training you would know that settling occurs and these canisters must be shaken. IOW, the officers were ahering to their training & product specifcations (your too funny).
Now, more importantly, here’s another article/video for ya’ll to review in reference to this matter that is clearly [i]contextual & fact bound.[/i]
Again, turn up your speakers and don’t forget among the ‘many’ (yes we’ll consider [b]YOUR [/b] definition of many) considerations, according to many experts, within the use of force continuum, the officer on the scene is in the best position to decide what level of force is appropriate.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/42890#.Ttg_AMwxgUU.facebook
Disregard the above typo should be “you’re”
“In fact, not only does he bathe them in the pepper spray but he can be seen shaking the can, trying to get more out.”
Or possibly he kept shaking the can as a further warning that if you don’t move you’re going to be sprayed. To say it was “trying to get more out” is complete speculation.
David
I agree and find this perspective refreshing.
Some thoughts about the use of the word “brutality”. In a strict definitional sense from my readily available on line dictionary since I was too lazy to get up , definitions include: 1) savage, cruel, inhumane 2) harsh, ferocious 3) irrational or unreasoning.
I think most of us would agree, whether or not we approve of the action, that the use of pepper spray in this setting would meet at least one of the above definitions. This could be because we think that the deliberate infliction of pain is cruel by definition, or whether it was inhumane not to offer immediate relief in the form of eye rinsing once the protester was in custody, or whether we think the action was “unreasoning” either because of the disproportionate amount of force or because it got the protesters the attention they were seeking and then some, thus playing into their hands.
So ” brutality” may indeed be a technically accurate description. And, being able to cite worse instances does not detract from the reality of what occurred here. However, I would caution against the dilutional effect of using this word casually when other words such as ” over reaction”, “disproportionate use of force” , ” excessive use of force” would work just as well and provoke a more reasoned, less emotive and defensive response. There is no need to amp up an emotional response here, the pictures speak for themselves in evoking emotion. What is needed, and what I hope we will see, is a thorough, objective investigation and implementation of well reasoned steps to prevent such events from happening again.
And I share your pride in living in a country in which the news of such an event is almost instantaneously available without any governmental attempt to suppress and in which we still see relatively more minor instances of “brutality” by any of the above definitions as unacceptable on those whose job it is to protect us.
A Social Scientist thats Paranoid , thats pretty lame .
“”””My friend’s lesson is that being paranoid saved the man. These are questions I often quibble with in my own mind. It is no secret that I do not trust the system and the Vanguard has been formed in part to watch over local government, whether it is the city council, the university, the police, or the courts.”””””
Interesting article. Thank goodness for cell phone cameras. However, video footage does not necessarily tell the entire story and can be used out of context. In the case of the pepper spraying, we really need to also know who knew what when, who said what to whom when, etc.
I’m sorry but without more information on the “evading case” I’m calling BS. How about an agency name, officer name, presecuting DA. That is exactly the type of story the Vanguard salivates over and we don’t even get so much as an agency name.
rusty49, what difference can it possibly make why he was shaking the can? The question is whether he should have been using the can at all and I think most of us would answer “NO.”
JT, using the USSC’s 4th Amendment/Use of Force Continuum analysis, exactly what level of force, in your opinion, would be permissible, under these circumstances?
JT
Like AdRemmer, I am interested in your thought about his question but also about your feelings about the broader issues involved in the use of pepper spray and escalating use of force in general.
JayTee, read my response again and try to comprehend. I was responding to David saying that Lt. Pike was shaking the can because he was “trying to get more out”. We don’t know why he was shaking the can, I only gave another possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hhPdH3wE0_Y
It’s a long one but worth the time.
Mr. Obvious
This clip, which I watched on the day after the protest is as incomplete and biased as the shorter clips that the attached commentary seems to criticize as biased. This clip does not include other footage which demonstrate that the actions of the more aggressively inclined protesters were quickly calmed by their fellow protesters, other footage showing police mingling with the protesters without any indication that they seemed intimidated, does not focus attention to the fact that the protesters repeatedly used the word ” peacefully” in their chants, does not include footage of the chants “you can leave” .
Here it would seem that the shear presence of so many cell phone cameras is a blessing because the event can be seen from many different points of view, and is obviously being spun from both political points of view. This is what will make the fingings of an independent and hopefully unbiased investigation so critical.
Mr Obvious,
Thus far the students had been portrayed as innocent bystanders by most of the media, but seeing the full video one could understand how the UCD Police Dept. could have felt threatened by being surrounded by hundreds of students with their path blocked off by others with interlocked arms. As readily shown in the video, numerous warnings were given. The students were being provocative in trying to stop the police from taking the arrested students away. I’m not saying it was 100% the right thing to do as far as the pepper spraying incident went, but at the same time I wasn’t in their situation and don’t know their level of feeling threatened by the students emerging upon them. This video certainly shows another side to the incident. I have to laugh at how the students seemed to do everything the guy on the bull horn directed them to do.
Medwoman, I understand the video has a bias. I thought it would provide a little balance to the bias that is presented here. I try to look at both sides before forming an opinion.
[quote][i]”A friend of mine at lunch this week tells me a story that happened in Yolo County recently. A man is being followed by an undercover police officer. How he knows this, I’m not sure. I’m not sure the guy was undercover, he may just have been off-duty. After awhile, the man has enough and starts snapping pictures out of the side of his car, toward his back.
At this point, the officer radios to get a marked unit there, the marked unit comes, follows the man and the same thing happens. So the man is pulled over and arrested for evading arrest. A misdemeanor. But because the man has pictures of the whole thing – due to his paranoia that the law is following him, he has a record and can demonstrate that he was not, in fact, evading the law.
My friend’s lesson is that being paranoid saved the man. These are questions I often quibble with in my own mind. It is no secret that I do not trust the system and the Vanguard has been formed in part to watch over local government, whether it is the city council, the university, the police, or the courts.”[/i][/quote][b]Really? Who? Where? What? When? Why? How?[/b]
Results from snopes.com:[quote]”Sorry, no matches were found containing: [u]Yolo followed undercover pictures evading radio marked [u]Vanguard[/u] bullshit”[/u].
We’re sorry you didn’t find what you were looking for. Please try again…Because many items circulate in numerous forms, often this slight shift in strategy will locate articles that a search on a specific string or title missed.[/quote]David, please provide a link to the story you’ve recounted or better key words so I can find this tale at http://www.snopes.com. Who is your friend with the ghost story? Please have him post his myth on this report, or over on the bulletin board (where this off-topic, craptall tale belongs. I’m not saying this didn’t happen in America; I’m just wondering how you verified it.
I’d like to participate in your discussion, “Why I Love My Country,” but need some attribution, documentation and understanding about why you’re testifying to the truth of testimony. It’s difficult to get past your lede with out it. Thanks.
rusty: copied from another thread –
Another perspective: http://www.shortform.com/FrankDaTank/ucdavis
Again, take note how quickly in a crowd siutation things can morph…
In light of the accusations that the DA’s office “overcharges” – Consider CA Penal code sections 406.6 (inciting a riot) and 664 (attempt) 236/237 (false imprisonment) and tell me again with what have the protestors been charged?
DG wrote:
Indeed it seems like a strange court ruling and stranger still that the Dean of the Law School would support such a ruling.
What is so ‘strange’ about a law professor who supports a USSC ruling?
I love my country because there is still some free choice left. The choice of a doctor, health insurance policy even though I will be required to have one, what kind of things I want to buy and so on. One of those choices is what school I want my kid to apply to attend. In fact, college choice is one of the most competitive things in America today, yet, it is only recently that people have begun having a serious discussion about what value they are getting for the astronomical, ever increasing, inflation beating cost of college.
The damage done to UC Davis’ reputation is what really concerns the leadership of the University. Notice the article in the Enterprise 11-25-11 about donors are still willing to give to UC Davis. How would they know? At the same time they are calling for patience while the investigation proceeds they have concluded that the money will still flow. This shows a level of concern about lost philanthropy more than anything else.
Davis has been moving up in the rankings as it builds both infrastructure and research faculty while it taps rich donors and develops corporate relationships, but, like in anything, one bad story can outweigh 100 good ones. I can just imagine parents asking their kids as the November application deadline approached; Johnny why don’t you apply to Claremont instead or UC Davis isn’t that where they needlessly pepper sprayed those students?
In the aftermath of the spraying my wife told me she doesn’t want the kids going to UC Davis. The thought, that in her mind, Davis as a choice was out, saddened me. Four more years of having the kid around is a delightful thought. Maybe, since we have more than a decade left for those decisions things will change, but for others, who have a shorter window before they choose, the damage done by this incident is still incalculable.
Mr Toad
I think your point is very well made, and very sad.
Four years ago, I encouraged my daughter to go to Berkely, where this June she graduated from their nationally top ranked Integrative Biology program. My son plans to go the same route. However, now I am having second thoughts. While I would like him to have the advantages of the top rated program in his area of choice, I am concerned for his safety. The police over reaction brings to my mind images of the female student killed at Kent State for the crime of walking in the vicinity of a campus protest. Claremont or its equivalent is starting to look better and better.
As a UC Davis grad, this makes me very sad.
Yeah, those darn policemen are always the ones to fear most.
Mr. Toad and others who now question sending your kids to what you know to be a quality school: I understand the disappointment we share in this incident. But, I figure it’s not the horrible reflection on the university that many make it out to be.
This really comes down to bad choices made by the on-the-ground participants themselves. If we decided to avoid a school or a state or a country based on a single terrible event, we’d all be in Canada, Mexico or New Zealand–and the place would pretty much be emptied out by now.[quote][i]”Interesting article. Thank goodness for cell phone cameras. However, video footage does not necessarily tell the entire story and can be used out of context.”[/i][/quote]Elaine, did you actually see the paranoid guy’s photography (the thing that apparently resulted in a “not guilty” finding in a Yolo County court? Please provide some sourcing. Otherwise, I’ll go whacko waiting for David to deliver!
rusty49
“Yeah, those darn policemen are always the ones to fear most.”
Well Rusty, they were the only one’s who were armed, and they were the only ones who caused any physical injuries. I would say that supports your assertion in this particular case.
JustSaying
” This really comes down to bad choices made by the on-the-ground participants themselves. If we decided to avoid a school or a state or a country based on a single terrible event, we’d all be in Canada, Mexico or New Zealand–and the place would pretty much be emptied out by now.”
The problem for me is that this is far from an isolated incident. Our country has a long tradition of government sponsored violence and discriminatory behavior against our own people, blacks in the south, the Japanese in WW Ii, the “war against terror” with it’s targeting of Muslims and folks with Middle Eastern sounding names or appearance , despite the fact that McVeigh and Loughner, committed deadly acts of terror and were as WASP in appearance as I am, the Arizona and Alabama with their “stop them if you suspect they could be an alien” laws.
The reality is I have often thought about Canada or New Zealand and probably would already be there if no one were depending on my income as a doc.
[i][quote]”The problem for me is that this is far from an isolated incident. Our country has a long tradition of government sponsored violence and discriminatory behavior….”[/quote][/i]I completely agree with you, and would extend your list to lots of other categories. Irish-Americans trying to make a living, women trying to vote, children without sense being charged as adults, gays trying to love one another, mentally deficient people unable to deal in society and German-Americans being blamed for Hitler’s terror are just a few more targets of government violence. And, none of these categories was an alien.
But, where can we go that hasn’t either disqualified itself by its own history and/or that isn’t just as likely to engage in similar discrimination or violence in future years. It doesn’t take much of a spark (something as tiny and unverified as David’s undercover/off-duty police officer story can twist ignorants’ attitudes and lead to the discrimination and violence you abhor.
We need to keep an eye on government and other institutions (including the [u]Vanguard[/u] and other media) that have the power to abuse and misguide the rest of us. A lot of the worst acts directly follow efforts to build fear in us with lies or half-truths. Be ever vigilant!
JustSaying
I agree with your questioning where might be better and have given this a lot of thought. I would prefer somewhere that does not impose a death penalty, where homosexual marriage is as acceptable as heterosexual, where no one would consider it acceptable for a child to go without health care or to bed hungry, and where people do not have cause to fear their own police because of their race, religion, nationality of origin, sex…… again, I am thinking in terms of Canada or New Zealand, but if you find such a place, please let me know.
For those of you who think a post like this means I hate this country, you are wrong. I love this country. And, I will not pretend that there is not much in need of improvement. Pretending that there are not problems would not mean that I love the country any less, just that I am unwilling to face reality.
Well said, medwoman.
To medwoman: If you really think it is so much better in for instance Canada, think again. They have tribal warfare there, the French against the non-French! LOL
Every country has its problems – none is immune, I guarantee it… Nirvana on earth does not exist…
Elaine
Agree completely, and feel that it is part of our job on earth to attempt to make things better where we can. Your actions on behalf of our community, if not always your words ( which can be a bit abrupt at times) would seem to imply that you feel the same way.