Last Monday, nine of our interns in the SF Court Watch program and I went down to San Francisco Superior Court—it was my first visit since March 13. We were pushing the court to make streaming video available, so we didn’t have to go into the courtrooms and potentially expose ourselves to COVID.
As I sat there, I became increasingly uncomfortable with what I saw. It was a large room, but there were at least 50 people inside. The ventilation was poor. They didn’t screen people. People were wearing masks, but were pulling them down to talk or in one case—yes—sneeze. For the length of time we were in there—about an hour, even with distancing and masks, it seemed likely that if someone were sick, we might have been exposed to the virus.
After leaving, several of the interns told me that they were extremely uncomfortable. The experience has shifted my thinking about willingness to put anyone in a courtroom.
DJUSD has been polling parents about their preference for the fall. It comes in the middle of two things. On the one hand, a huge surge in cases of COVID. The U.S. added nearly 70,000 cases in a day. Hospitals and ICU units are filled. The death rate is starting to tick back up after months of decline.
On the other hand, the Trump administration is trying to pressure states and schools to re-open. The President tweeted last week: “I disagree with @CDCgov on their very tough & expensive guidelines for opening schools. While they want them open, they are asking schools to do very impractical things. I will be meeting with them!!!”
Vice President Pence called the CDC guidelines for reopening schools in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic “impractical” and “expensive.
“None of the CDC’s recommendations are intended to replace state and local rules and guidance,” Pence said.
Whatever.
My wife and I agree: we are not sending our kids to schools until vaccinations are widely available. We are at 929 cases in Yolo County. Remember when it was in the 300s? That wasn’t very long ago. In May we were getting about 1 to 5 in a day, now we are getting as many as 59 in a day. Things are out of control.
This is why we shouldn’t have opened back up in May, even with the numbers low. It wasn’t because one death in two weeks would shut down the economy. It was because shutting down the economy kept things from spiraling very quickly out of control.
I can tell you, as a parent of kids age 8 and 10 in the 2nd and 4th grades, distance learning was not great. The amount of learning they did after March was minimal. It was a challenge to monitor kids while having two adults with challenging jobs.
But what’s the alternative? I have two high-risk adults in my household. With my diabetes and my wife’s bad asthma, getting COVID probably sends us to an early grave.
People who argue that kids are low risk are missing several key things. First, we really don’t know what the long-term risk is. We see a low mortality rate for younger people—but we also see young people hospitalized and suffering from decreased lung capacity and other chronic ailments. We are messing with things that we don’t understand. That’s scary.
Second, children are not the only variable. You have teachers—and in DJUSD many of them are high risk. We are going to have them be in a classroom for hours at a time with children and exposed to COIVD? Does that make sense?
Third, we have parents. My kids get sick, there is no way I’m not. Like I said, I don’t believe I will survive it.
How safe can we make things? We know that people are contagious probably at least two days before they show symptoms, so standard temperature and screening is going to be incomplete.
Yes, we can social distance and require masks. But we are talking about children now. Adults pull their masks away from their face or wear them below their nose. What are children going to do?
You think we can keep children away from each other? I keep having to complain to the neighbors to have their kids stay six feet away from mine.
And even under perfect conditions, you are in the same situation as the courthouse—long period exposure negates the effectiveness of either masks or social distancing.
This will have an impact on my kids. I suggest the schools go to online lectures on video until vaccines are available, or the number of cases drops to zero. That will harm children’s learning and we will probably have to do something radical like summer schools to catch them up. But the health concerns are overwhelming all other considerations.
Whatever the school does, my kids are not going to school. I know other families feel the same. That’s just how it’s going to be. It would be better to work with us rather than fight us.
—David M. Greenwald reporting
Since a corona vaccine has never been developed for any corona virus that might be a long time.
I see where some districts are offering home school only or combinations of three days a week in class and home school.
David then states:
It sounds like DJUSD is trying to work with parents.
“It sounds like DJUSD is trying to work with parents.”
Correct. My comment there was not directed at DJUSD.
Then maybe the same should apply to you, the working together and not always fighting everything works both ways.
I don’t have an option – if I get sick, I die. You probably do as well. Not sure why you are so cavalier about this.
David… that may be your fear… but not necessarily reality… but, we all have to use our best judgments as to what “acceptable risk” is… you may have a higher risk, but even for you, illness from Covid-19 does not = death… unless a doctor has so informed you… and then I’d wonder about the doctor.
It doesn’t really matter if it is reality. The reality is the last few times I got the flu, I ended up in ER. Why would I risk getting something that appears to be several orders of magnitude worse? Moreover, if I get it, it is out of my hands and the best medical teams in teh world may not be able to save me? Again, why take that risk? I’ve already lost a brother in law over this. It was a HORRIBLE way to die, btw, something people don’t seem to appreciate. And a lot of people who are surviving are severely compromised. The biggest issue is we are playing roulette and don’t know the actual stakes.
Guess I’ll put you down as a strong “no” as to being tolerant of others decisions…
As I’ve said at least twice now, I respect the decisions you’re making… given the history, makes perfect sense.
But please don’t tell me what I cannot, or have to do, based on your circumstances… I don’t do that to you.
But not all diabetics who contract covid go into ER and/or die… most folk who have diabetes and get the flu do not need to go to the ER… have known many diabetics, both type I and type II who have contracted the flu… not one single ER visit or death…
Your experience is not indicative of a ‘global’ situation… but, it is your experience, and you should make your choices based on that. Simple respect…
To date, on the Vanguard although not necessarily speaking before the BOS, I have been quite circumspect and what some have called “reasonable” about best practices regarding the coronavirus. Now, I am going to tell you what I really think.
We made a huge mistake in reopening the county too soon. We did that on an attestation, which was basically a way of skirting some very real numbers which were not breaking the way the business community wanted them to. Our county officials succumbed to intense pressure from these private interests and we are now seeing the results in actual numbers of cases which will as the county health officer predicted result in more deaths, some preventable.
So what does this have to do with the schools? Everything. True, some other countries have safely reopened their schools. But none have done so without first getting their new case rate to near zero for a prolonged period. Our case rate is rising rapidly. Even with the best strategies for safety within the schools, I would not recommend reopening in the foreseeable future. But let’s be honest here. As the two top officials of the US have both said CDC recommendations will be both expensive and impractical. In a conversation with my daughter, a high school science teacher, at their school board meeting, much lip service was paid to safe practices with nary a word about how to pay for them.
So I am going to stick out my previously prudent neck here. We are nowhere near ready to open our schools to even reduced class size and what the board should be focused on at this time is how to get truly creative with Zoom or other modalities for in-home learning.
I agree Tia – we made a huge mistake, I suspected that was the case at the time but hoped that people would be responsible – they haven’t been. We haven’t even seen the worst yet.
Ah! Finally the ‘conspiracy theories’… BOS is in the pocket of the ‘business community’… maybe so, maybe not… time might, or might not tell…
I’m not sure that saying they were under pressure from the business community is a conspiracy.
To be clear…
Those who believe everyone should draw into their ‘shells’, because that is what they want, and those who want to open up everything, no protocols, no restrictions, are all idiots/foolish and or “self”-ish. IMNSHO…
I choose to be prudent, be informed, and follow science based advice… y’all can make your own choices… based on your own circumstances… but don’t tell me what I can’t or can’t do based on your biases… I do the mask, do the distancing, minimize travel… thus far, but no farther.
To the main topic, school attendance… I say again will respect choices parents make, particularly if schools are prudent, informed, and follow science-based advice. Informed choice…
“But please don’t tell me what I cannot, or have to do, based on your circumstances… I don’t do that to you.”
Actually, in the time of a pandemic with asymptomatic spread, that is exactly what you are doing, making choices that might affect David directly. But let’s depersonalize it and consider Family A and Family B.
Family A has two parents, and two kids in the schools, one of whom plays football and has a part-time job at a grocery store to save for college. All are under 60 and have no major risk factors. They choose to send the kids to school where unfortunately the older child contracts asymptomatic virus from another player in an unguarded moment.
Family B also has two children, one who also works at the grocery store to help out at home since his grandparents who both have serious health issues live with them.
The two teens hours overlap at the grocery and in an episode of forgetfulness, Family A teen forgets his mask until reminded by the manager. Previously healthy Teen B is now an asymptomatic carrier of the virus who carries it unknowingly home to his grandparents who unfortunately die within the month from complications of preventable COVID-19.
I would argue that in a time of pandemic we should all be making decisions based not only on our own circumstances and preferences but also on how those decisions may impact the entire community. Ideally, we would all choose to act responsibly. It is only when we do not that the government must step in.
This might be a helpful graphic illustrating the problems with “informed choices.”
Bill
I used the word “pressure”. At no time did I say or imply “in the pocket of”.
This is no conspiracy theory. What I know about the impact of pressure on the County Board of Supes, I know from direct observation. I have watched every BOS meeting since the time of COVID-19 by Zoom. Time after time I heard every supervisor recount multiple calls, letters, emails, and public comments from businesses urging the supervisors to “find a way” to open up, all stating it could be done “safely”. Obviously that was not accurate, just as they were cautioned it would not be by a small number of MDs, statisticians, & epidemiologists.
Also, since I am attempting to have a serious exchange of ideas here, I would greatly appreciate it if you would not embellish or twist my words to further politicize this issue which should not have ever been politicized in the first place. If you want to know the basis of any of my comments, you have only to ask.
Thanks, Tia. I hope that many others will be as forthcoming with their educated opinions. We are in deep doo-doo and everyone has to get on board with social distancing or we will not get out.
Am on-board with social distancing (except with immediate family who have lived in the same house for 26 years)… am on board with wearing a mask when unable to do full distancing (I use the 2 meter standard, as this is a pandemic, and SI units are appropriate)…
Thus far, no farther… [except I need to do a medical procedure in a few weeks, and the provider insists on the full Covid swab thingy (throat and sinus) three days in advance… then, ‘full isolation’ for three days]… [and the procedure has nothing to do with the respiratory tract…]
I eschew the extremists on both ‘sides’…
Ron
What recommendation made by any medical or scientific expert do you consider “extreme”? I will be happy to discuss the evidence behind any such recommendation.
Can we agree to respect those folk who will choose to keep their kids out of school (physically… and work with alternative instruction methods…), until there is zero risk (from everything? Good luck with that!), and folk who, evaluate risk, given scientific, reasonable, measures, and allow their children to attend?
I’m kind doubting that, but hopeful we could respect both choices…
I respect David/Cecelia’s choice, and support giving them non-physical contact resources to educate the kids… but I do not believe others should be ‘forced’ or shamed to make the same choices…
Bill
I have a very hard time understanding why you feel the need to interject into a serious discussion, extremist scenarios that are being suggested by precisely no one. No one is suggesting bubble wrapping children so there is “zero risk of anything”. Do you deny our case numbers have increased dramatically since our partial reopening? Do you deny this poses an increased risk to all members of the community? Do you deny we will see more deaths as cases increase?
I am genuinely trying to have a conversation about your true beliefs. Only by real understanding of the various points of view can w hope to defeat the virus and you posted a strawman argument. I honestly do not understand why you would do this.
Tia…
If a child rides a bike, walks, or is driven to school, there are risks… Sandy Hook, Columbine, some place in Florida had bad outcomes [as did DHS]… risk is everywhere… also include ‘lesser’ risks… sexual predation by teachers, etc.
David wrote,
Well as I’m sure you know, even with vaccines widely available, between the anti-vaxxers, and even with vaccinations, they are not 100% effective. That goes to the context of “zero risk, good luck with that”…
Folk who believe that life should be 100% free of risks (encountered many, where parents thought something was dangerous, absent any incidents, and demanded action, saying “how many children must die before you act?!!”)… those are my experiences…
I respect David’s view for him and his family. It appears you have no respect for mine… which is fine.
But we do not live in a “risk-free” world… anyone who believes we should/can, is delusional.
Bill
“If a child rides a bike, walks, or is driven to school, there are risks… Sandy Hook, Columbine, someplace in Florida had bad outcomes [as did DHS]… risk is everywhere… also include ‘lesser’ risks… sexual predation by teachers, etc.”
Precisely zero of the risk you mentioned are contagious and could be spread by the child unknowingly to other members of their household or others.
For me, this is not about “respect” for ideas. It is about a factual appreciation of the community as well as individual risk. I believe opening the schools at this point should involve a fact-based assessment of risk. We have seen what happened when we erred on the side of early opening. How often do we have to make the same mistake before we are willing to admit that all ideas and preferences are not equal?
I don’t suppose you’re open to a suggestion of giving up “one” of those challenging jobs. (The one that supposedly doesn’t pay much.) 😉
On a more serious level, I’ve known people who have home-schooled their kids (without the technology we have these days), and they actually seemed to do better, scholastically (and possibly emotionally, as well). It essentially takes one parent not working, like the “old days”.
Perhaps if our tax structure was set-up to encourage this, it might be a better option for some folks.
How are you qualified to comment on parenting, schooling or health?
How are you?
Do you think I was raised by wolves?
I know you’re well-qualified to “troll”. An expert, on that subject.
Are you a parent? Are you an education professional? Are you a health professional?
What difference do those things make, in regard to my comment?
Do you think that (other than being a parent), those who home-school their kids necessarily meet your other “qualifications”?
If you put forth a little more effort into responding to actual comments (rather than just “attack”), you might add some value to the conversation. But, this doesn’t seem to be your primary goal, on this blog.
“What difference do those things make, in regard to my comment?”
It makes a difference because you regularly flood the conversation with wordy off topic unqualified comments that are seemingly intended to distract from the topic.
If being an expert was a prerequisite for posting here there would hardly be any comments.
Heck, if being an expert had to be a qualification David wouldn’t be able to write many of his columns.
Give it a rest Hobbs.
Thanks, Keith.
If being a true “expert” in various subjects was a prerequisite for teaching kids, there probably wouldn’t be any teachers. 😉 (At least until maybe high school.)
Then again, wasn’t there a TV show – something along the lines of “Are you smarter than a fourth-grader”?
The experts, the American Academy of Pediatrics, think kids should return to school.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aap-recommends-kids-return-school-coronavirus-debate-214055213.html
Actually, they changed their view on Friday and said it depended on COVID rates: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/10/889848834/nations-pediatricians-walk-back-support-for-in-person-school
NBC 5 expert pediatricians agree to the reopening of schools
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/5-pediatricians-on-the-safety-of-schools-amid-pandemic-87569477784
“Experts agreed that most children do not get as sick as adults when infected with the coronavirus and are less likely to transmit the disease. While some said they don’t favor opening schools so soon, all 5 agreed that the benefits of in-person schooling outweigh the risks — but the key is to reopen safely.”
I watched the video. There was considerable disagreement on the timing of reopening and the AAP’s new statement contains: “local coronavirus infection rates and hot spots have to be taken into consideration to safely reopen schools.” I agree that the benefits of in-school classes are great, but until we can get the curve flattened, opening schools is going to put more pressure on parents AND kids in at-risk and underprilieged schools are going to be at a severe disadvantage.
Ron
Your comment might have been reasonable a few decades ago. Today, unless the couple has planned from the beginning of their marriage to live to the standard that one of them can earn and that individuals career has had no setbacks, this is nota viable solution for most. That might be feasible if we were to have chosen, as a country, to adopt some form of UBI to incentivize one parent to stay at home. But alas, we have not even during this pandemic, because of “gasp” socialism. As it is, it is a completely unreasonable expectation for anyone in the mid to lower middle class let alone those lower still on the economic scale.
Yeah…
Eliminate child-care tax credits…
Eliminate dependent deductions.
That would help to not ‘subsidize’ having children, and maybe further reduce birth rates… then we would need less schools, saving even more in taxes… fewer children would even decrease the need for housing, ‘sprawl’, in the future…
Just saying…
Since this comment was in response to mine, I’ll address it.
Provide tax credits for those willing to teach their kids at home, which reduces the need for school funding.
May not be perfectly offsetting, but perhaps close-enough.
Ron
Unless you are willing to show your math regarding how this might be anywhere near “close enough” to keep families out of poverty, that would be a hard “no” from me. It also makes the assumption that all families have equal ability to educate their children at home. For me, that would have meant I would never have gotten beyond division in math and beyond a sixth-grade reading level with my mom as the stay-home parent.
The suggestion wouldn’t “cause” poverty.
No it doesn’t. Look at the suggestion, again.
The suggestion wasn’t to close all schools. But, technology can (also) deliver education beyond what a parent can provide. So can “books”, for that matter.
Perhaps furthering parents’ education, as well.
@Keith Olsen @Ron Oertel: Thanks for proving my points, guys.
?
Questions for the school district.
What metrics are being used to make the decision about whether to open or not?
The Yolo County Health officer has determined, based on increasing cases, that it is not safe to be in a bar or indoor restaurant for any period of time. What basis is being used to suggest that being in a classroom with a couple of dozen people for several hours a day, several days a week, is safe?
If the option of in-person schooling is presented, what metrics will be used to continue with that? How many local infections would prompt a classroom or entire school to be closed, for how long, and on what basis would they be reopened?
Will parents who choose not to bring their children for enrollment in-person lose any rights as to school of attendance? Will their children be considered truant? If they wish to transfer their children to DSIS for official enrollment, does that school have capacity?
How will special education and gifted programs be managed during this upcoming school year?
Are the teachers involved in these decisions, and are they on board with classroom teaching? Have they been trained in distance-learning as with DSIS? What will the district do if a significant percentage of the teachers refuse to return to the classroom?
Ron
“The suggestion wouldn’t “cause” poverty.”
We wouldn’t know without seeing the proposed numbers for a variety of families. I am not saying it would, only that I don’t think we could know that without fleshed-out scenarios.
“No, it doesn’t.”
OK. I made an assumption I should not have made. I assumed you are aware of the educational gap already existing in our community and how much of that gap is fueled by the disparity of education levels of the parents. How are you proposing to bridge that gap?
Your comment about educating the parents ignores the reality of single parents who may not speak English fluently, may already be working two or more jobs to sustain their family while relying on older children to care for the younger, a frequent circumstance amongst my daughter’s students. I would be interested in hearing your ideas for approaching those problems.
Poverty is a different issue, in regard to my suggestion. Though I’m sure that many parents would be open to the idea of receiving money to teach their own kids. Might even lift some parents out of poverty.
As with poverty, you’re referring to something that already exists (and isn’t being “solved” under the current system).
How’s this for an idea: Provide larger incentives for lower-income parents?
Those folks would probably “compare” their exiting salary and benefits, with those they might receive under what I’ve suggested. They might also compare the quality of what they’re currently receiving, vs. what they might be willing to try on their own.
Some will choose schools, some may choose home-schooling.
Regardless of what one thinks of these ideas, the reality is that sending kids to school right now is creating a lot of concern. Might the situation be better, if parents were provided with some incentive to teach their kids at home – thereby lessening the need to send their kids into a risky situation?
Especially since some of these parents have also lost jobs, due to Covid?
As with “work-at-home”, “school-at-home” might be here to stay, to some greater degree.
But truth be told, I suspect that some parents want a break from their own kids, and really don’t know how to handle them. (I see that sometimes, when out in public.)
Probably terrifies some of them, to think that they might be stuck at home with them – on a permanent basis! (And, this isn’t necessarily based upon income level.)
A lot of what school provides is a taxpayer-funded “babysitting service”, outside of one’s own home (thank goodness)! 😉
You know why not make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If Hollywood can make virtual actors and actresses to eliminate overhead costs why can’t school districts use virtual teachers to eliminate actual teachers that in itself would make taxes cheaper we could eliminate school districts we can even eliminate principals and vice-principals buy using virtual principals and vice-principals we could eliminate the cost of building new school or schools in general.
But of course it would never happen because California is too much into kingdom building.
I think you’re on to something here Chris.
There’s no reason online lectures couldn’t be set up that way, with virtual teachers. Of course there still would have to be some hands on teaching but the lectures could certainly be set up that way with huge savings.
That was our thinking as well. The distance learning they did last spring was very thin
All California or school districts and/or Teachers’ unions? Just looking for clarification.
If all CA, feel free to re-locate…